Richmond Enquirer

CONVENTION.
DEBATE ON BASIS OF REPRESENTATION
In Committee of the Whole on the Constitution.
MR. CHAPMAN JOHNSON'S SPEECH.
Wednesday, Nov. 11.
(Continued.)
Before we proceed to a more particular consideration of this question, it may be well to review the statements which have been submitted to us, deduced from the tables furnished by the Auditor, and to make such corrections as they may be found to require.
The tables of population shew us that there are probably in the commonwealth at this time, about 682,000 white persons, and about 448,000 slaves, thus distributed amongst the different districts:—In the 1st or western district, about 181,000 whites, and 17,000 slaves, more than ten whites for each slave:—in the 2nd, or Valley district, about 138,000 whites, and 33,500 slaves, little more than 4 whites to a slave;—in the 3rd or middle district, about 197,000 whites, and 221,000 slaves— the slaves exceeding the whites by about 24,000, nearly one-eighth of the white population: and in the 4th or eastern district, about 165,000 whites, and 176,000 slaves, —the slaves there, also exceeding the whites, about 10,500, about one-sixteenth of the white population.— Thus it appears that the aggregate of slaves on the east of the Blue Ridge is about 397,000, while the aggregate on the west is about 50,500—nearly 8 to 1—while the aggregate of white population on the east of the mountain is about 362,500 and that on the west 319,000—the difference only about 43,500. It is, therefore, true as is stated on the other side, that the slave population is very unequally distributed at this time, and is at present essentially an eastern interest.
From the tables of taxation, the gentleman from Chesterfield deduced, that the people of the first district paid of the whole taxes on land and personal property, an average per capita, of 23 cents 8 mills; and the people of the second district 42 cents 6 mills, while the people of the 3rd district, paid 72 cents 2 mills, and those of the fourth 63 cents 9 mills—making an average for the people on the west of the Blue Ridge of 32 cents 2 mills and for the people on the east of 68 cents 2 mills. He selected individual counties in the different districts, between which there was a still more striking inequality, and shewed that the average contribution of the slave tax per capita, in the several districts, was the most unequal of all.
That there are inequalities in the contributions of revenues from the different districts of the State, owing to the unequal distribution of wealth, no one doubts. It is certainly so, in our country, as it is in all countries, and as it must be, so long as taxes are laid upon property and not on polls; so long as the ability to pay shall be regarded as furnishing any criterion of the amount of contribution. But the statements which have been exhibited to you are calculated to deceive— They make the impression that the several sums stated, show the average per capita, actually assessed on the tax-paying inhabitants of the several districts—this, however, is not the case: the calculations are made by distributing the whole amount of taxes assessed, in each district, on the whole number of free persons in the district, on whom by law a tax could be assessed whether black or white, male or female, infant or adult.
I have made an estimate of the average per capita, actually assessed, on the tax-paying inhabitants of the several districts,—and the result is materially different, shewing inequalities, it is true, as must have been anticipated, but inequalities less glaring, and less calculated to excite alarm, or, to countenance the extravagant claim for power which had been founded upon them.
The committee will remark, that I have made this estimate from the Auditor's tables of the taxes assessed for the year 1828, and his lists of persons charged with taxes on land or other property, in the several counties and corporations in the Commonwealth.— There will be a slight inaccuracy in the estimate of the land tax, resulting from the circumstance, that this list excludes all those charged with a tax, on parcels of land in the country, less than 25 acres. But this inaccuracy cannot materially vary the result.
Calculating from these data, I find the average tax per capita as follows: in the first district, land tax 80 cents, tax on other property, 59 cents—total $1,39; in the second district, land tax $2,30, tax on other property $1.12, total $3.42;—In the third district, land tax $2 31, tax on other property $2.43—total $4,74;—and in the fourth district, land tax $2,78, tax on other property $2.43—total $4,50. We thus see that the average land tax of the Valley district is equal to the average land tax of the middle district within one cent, and is superior to the average land tax of the eastern district, twenty-three cents,—that its average total tax, is less than the average total of the middle district, $1,32—that is about 28 per cent, and less than the average total of the eastern district, by $1,08—that is about 22 per cent—But the taxes on slaves, have been reduced 8 cents, for the present year, and this reduction would cause, the average of the second district, $3.34;—third district, $4.43—fourth district, $4,19, bringing the Valley district within $1,11 of the midland district, and within 85 cents of the eastern—It must be further remarked, that in these estimates, the towns of Richmond, Petersburg and Fredericksburg have been included within the tide-water district.—Now, although these towns are situated at the head of tide-water, they do not, for any of the purposes of this argument, belong to the tide-water district. Their sympathies, their interests are with the country that lies above them, which founded them, supplies their trade and furnishes their wealth Withdraw them from that district. and you diminish very materially its average tax.—We have not the means of estimating the taxes paid in Fredericksburg, our tables containing no separate return for that town—Subtracting Richmond and Petersburg only, for which we have separate returns, and then the average of the eastern district will be, of land $2,32, of tax on other property $2,12, total $3,96;—thus reducing its average land tax 46 cents below that of the Valley, and leaving its total average only 53 cents above it.
In all these estimates it will be observed that the contributions of the trans-Alleghany district are very much below par.—It is easy to understand why the average tax on personal property, is much lower there, than in the other districts, because of the small number of its slaves;—but why the average land tax should be so, is an enquiry. the answer to which does not lie on the surface. It is probably to be found in two considerations.—First, very large quantities of land, in different parts of that district, on which large arrears of taxes are due, have been vested in the literary fund, by the operations of the tax law of 1814, and are now stricken from the tax books, because the lands belonging to that fund pay no taxes—secondly and chiefly, in the year 1817, when all the lands of the commonwealth were assessed, it is well known that the public mind was acting under a delusion, which misled its estimates of the value of every thing, and perhaps of nothing more, than of the value of land— The combined influence of protracted war in Europe, which for many years had given an extensive market, and high prices, to the products of our soil,—our own war, which throwing a large amount of mercantile capital out of its regular employment, left it to seek investment in land; and the great multiplication of banks, which creating a large, fictitious capital, increased to an extravagant degree the speculations in real property—had inflated the market price of that property beyond any reasonable relation to its intrinsic value. These causes. in Virginia, had exerted their principal force in the agricultural country, of the Valley, and the eastern side of the Mountain, and especially the banking towns, and their immediate vicinities. They were but little felt In the trans-Alleghany country, remote from the influence of the banking—remote from market, and from the scenes of speculation. Its lands were the less sought either by the emigrant or the speculator, because of the difficulty in their titles. The land law of one thousand seven hundred and seventy nine, drawn it is said, by the same Geo. Mason, the author of our Constitution.—men are not equally wise for all things!—the land law of '79 had operated to produce infinite confusion in the land titles of the west; and this cause, as well by retarding settlements as by discouraging purchasers, had depressed the market value of their lands. Thus, while extraneous causes of one kind contributed to enhance the market value of lands east of the Alleghany, extraneous causes of another kind conspired to depreciate the market value of the lands west of that mountain. I should have inferred, therefore. that the assessment of 1817, which the law required to be made according to the market value, would have overrated the lands on the eastern waters, and underrated those on the western. We all know that the lands on the eastern waters were assessed too high, and I am informed that those on the western waters were in truth assessed too low. Looking at a statement made from the assessor's tables, we find that while the average value of the lands in the western waters was but $2 per acre, those of the Valley were seven dollars and thirty-three cents, those of the Midland district $8 20 : and those of the eastern district $8 43 per acre. These causes, added to the great increase of population in the western district since the assessment, leave no reasonable doubt that a new assessment would reduce the average of all the lands of the three districts upon the eastern waters, especially of the tide-water district—would raise the average of the lands in the western district, and would place the land-tax of that district nearly upon a ground of equality with the land-tax of the other districts of the State.
It does not follow, Mr. Chairman, from the inequalities of contribution in the different districts, that there is any injustice in the measure of taxes imposed. or that those who pay least can best bear the burthen imposed on them. If taxes are imposed on the property of the country, in the proportion of the ability of its owners to pay, those who have more property. and therefore pay more taxes, have surely no cause to complaint. With equal prudence, economy, and good management, the rich will be always able to pay their contributions to the government with more ease than the poor. The contributions of the rich man are paid from his abundance, and if they restrain his enjoyments at all, they curtail only his luxuries—while the poor man withdraws his modicum from a bare competency. leaving scarcely enough behind for the necessaries and the ordinary comforts of life. It has been the object of our laws to distribute the taxes among the people in proportion to the value of their property, assuming that as the best criterion of their ability to pay, and adopting such general rules to effect their object as were found by experience to be most convenient in practice. If they have failed in this object, as no doubt in some degree they have, the failure has not been greater than was to have been anticipated from the intrinsic difficulty of the subject. If you will measure the ability of the several districts by the amount of their labor, and allow the whole number of their inhabitants, respectively, to be a fair standard of their comparative labor,—you have a test by which to try this question. I do not vouch for the accuracy of this test, though a better one does not now occur to me;—and if you will apply, by dividing the whole amount of taxes in each district, by the whole number of its inhabitants, you will find the average per capita not very unequal in the several districts east of the Alleghany, and unequal in the western district, no doubt, because of the accidental undervalue of its lands as already explained. The taxes of the several districts for the year 1828, distributed among all the inhabitants of each, gives an average, per capita, nearly as follows: In the first district, fifteen cents; in the second, twenty-nine cents; in the third, thirty one cents; and in the fourth, thirty cents.
I have been thus particular in examining the manner in which the taxes are distributed among the different districts of the Commonwealth, not because it was essential to the merits of the question now before the Committee, but because I thought it would remove from our minds the alarming spectacle of poverty making war upon wealth,—and would satisfy impartial men that each district pays, as nearly as the operation of laws always imperfect could be expected to produce, a just contribution to the government,—that no district is in a state of pauperism—none in a situation to be tempted to seize unlawfully on its neighbor's property,—and that in all human probability, when hereafter a western man shall vote from the pocket of his eastern brother, one dollar, in the form of taxes, he will vote from his own pocket, at the same time, nearly an equivalent sum, one at least, which he can as ill spare, and will be as little able to pay. I regretted very much to hear that part of the remarks of the gentleman from Accomac, (Mr. Joynes.) in which he endeavored to show that the whole country west of the Blue Ridge did pay into the treasury a sum sufficient to defray the expenses of its delegation to the General Assembly, and of the Administration of justice within its own limits. Remarks tending to institute odious comparisons, and to excite unpleasant sensations, coming from a gentleman, who has manifested so much liberality, so much kind and good feeling, are exceedingly to be regretted; and I felt them the more, because they came from that part of the State, the extreme East, from which on former occasions. I have so often heard remarks leading to collision and controversy, between the extreme West and extreme East, which required the interposition of moderate men to compose. I have not examined the gentleman's calculation to ascertain whether his conclusion is right or wrong. After having ascertained the precise amount of taxes paid by each district; after ascertaining the average amount per capita, paid on each, what possible influence, on the question before us, can it have, adequate to that part of the expenses of the government, which the calculations of gentlemen may choose to assign to it, surely justice, not local in their character, pertain to no district. and can be charged to none. They are, if any can be, the expenses of the whole commonwealth, incurred for the common weal and justly payable from the common purse. Such imputations as these, if it were proper to repel them, would lead to the unpleasant and unprofitable enquiry, into the objects to which the public revenue was applied; the districts in which it was expended; the local causes which increased the expense of government, and would impose on us the invidious duty, which I certainly shall not perform, of indicating the various counties, in the Eastern district, which do not contribute their share of the expenses of Government. But we must forbear from such topics, they do not become the occasion.
It will be proper, Mr. Chairman; to disarm this question of some of its terrors to one party;—disrobe it of some of its charms for the other, by examining with care its effects on the distribution of power, among the different districts of the commonwealth. The calculations on this subject, have been made with reference to the House of Delegates, and upon the supposition that that House should consist of an hundred and twenty members.— They are made upon the Auditor's estimates of the population of the present year. These are supposed by some gentlemen to be inaccurate, and the Auditor does not himself rely with confidence upon them;—but I assume them as approximating the truth sufficiently for the purposes of the present argument.
Let us, then, compare the power of the four great districts of the State, in such a House of Delegates, as it would be on the present basis, the equal representation of Counties, as it would be on the compound basis proposed by the gentleman from Culpeper, and as it would be on the basis of white population. The Committee will understand my references to the districts, if they will remember, that I number them from West to East, denominating the Western the first district.
In such a House of Delegates, the relative power of the several districts would stand thus:
On the basis of equal County representation.
First District, 27 3d, 16 3d, 32 4th, 43.
Common Basis.
First District, 21 1-2 2d, 21 1-2 3d 42 4th, 35.
Simple Basis of white population.
First, 32 2d.34 3d.35 4th,29.
Divided by the Blue Ridge, the East and West, would stand thus:
By equal County Representation, W. 45 E. 75.
By the combined ratio, 43 "77.
White population. 56 " 64.
In making these calculations, we disregard small fractions, and convert large ones into integers, that we may give the results in whole numbers.
By this method of calculating the effect of the two propositions it would appear, that, adopting the compound basis, the West would lose and the East gain two members out of one hundred and twenty, and that, adopting the simple basis, the West would gain and the East lose eleven. But if instead of taking the whole number of white persons, as the basis, you take such only as are qualified to vote, there is reason to believe that the result would be materially varied. We have no means of ascertaining the number of qualified voters,—there is no record of them any where, and we have certainly no data from which we could estimate them accurately.—But we may approximate them perhaps sufficiently near, to answer the purpose of illustration, by estimates from such data as we have.
Until I came into this Convention, Mr. Chairman, I had habitually considered representation apportioned according to the whole number of white people, in the different districts, and one apportioned according to the qualified voters in each, as substantially equivalents.—I had supposed, that the ratio of the one, would be a fair index of the ratio of the other. I had never carefully examined the subject, 'till my duties in the Legislative Committee, called my attention to it, and induced me to doubt the correctness of my former impressions. The able argument of the gentleman from Chesterfield, rivetted my attention to it, and induced me to think, that those impressions were probably wrong. There is much weight due the consideration, that those who perform menial services,—the day-labourers, the cultivators of land which they do not own, are in the Eastern Districts, principally slaves, —while those who perform similar functions, in the Western Districts, are chiefly white persons; and this consideration tends to the conclusion, that the ratio of qualified voters, to the whole white population, would be greater in the East than in the West. I have appealed to the only documents in my power, to test this conclusion,—the lists of persons charged with taxes, furnished us by the Auditor. He has furnished two lists,—the one, of the number of persons in each county and corporate town; charged with any tax, on a town lot, or part of a town lot, or any parcel of land, not less than 25 acres,—the other, of the number charged with any tax on property. Now, although each of these lists, contains male and female, young and old, black and white, without discrimination; and, therefore, cannot inform us correctly of the actual number of adult white males, upon either; yet I have thought, that, probably, they would not very far mislead us, if we regard them as an index of the relative number of free adult white males, in the several districts, and as an index of the relative number of qualified voters in each. If we take the list of those charged with taxes on land, as giving the ratio of freehold voters, and the other list as giving the ratio of voters, when the Right of Suffrage shall be extended to housekeepers, who pay a revenue tax, then upon the basis of the qualified voters, the relative power of the districts would stand thus:
According to the land list—1st, 27—2nd, 20—3d, 37— 4th,36
the property list—1st, 29—2nd, 21—3d, 39— 4th, 34
Dividing by the Blue Ridge, the power would be,
According to the first—West, 47—East, 73.
According to the second—West,50—East, 70.
Thus, according to the most favorable of these estimates, the West would gain, and the East lose 5 members, in a house of an hundred and twenty, and the majority on the Eastern side of the Blue Ridge, would remain 20.
These statements may serve to shew, that although upon any basis of representation which has been yet suggested, a large portion of power will pass from the tide-water district, to those above it,—yet upon no basis, can the power pass now, from the Eastern to the Western side of the Blue Ridge, and that upon the principle for which we contend, if it pass at all, it must pass at a distant day, slowly, gradually, safely—unaccompanied by the dangers which have been apprehended—they may serve to show a calm reflection, that the stake depending on the present contest is not so great, the prize to be won not so valuable, the loss to be sustained not so dreadful, as has been pictured to our imaginations. I may have occasion again to refer to them in illustration of my views.
In taking leave, for the present, of those calculations which I have introduced as correctives of the estimates made on the other side, I cannot forbear remarking on the seeming inconsistency of gentlemen, who losing no occasion to throw ridicule on numbers, and political arithmetic, have arrayed them against us, in a most formidable phalanx, and have drawn from them their strongest & most expressive arguments. I have no doubt that the tables of population and taxes, which have gone out to the public, with the arithmetical calculations of gentlemen, on the other side, which have accompanied them, and their inferences of change of power and danger of oppressive taxation, have been the principal cause of the great excitement in the public mind, and of the alarm which is felt, in the Eastern districts of the Commonwealth; an excitement and alarm which have already done mischief, and threaten to do more;—which have already, through the instrumentality of instructions, deprived an honorable member of his seat on this floor, and may soon confound the councils of this Convention. I mean not at all to interpose between the district and its delegate;—it is not for me to inquire into the causes which led to the instruction and the consequent resignation;—but as a member of this Convention, anxious for the harmony and profitable issue of its labors; —as a citizen of the Commonwealth, deeply interested in its welfare, I cannot but lament the example, which i followed generally, must deprive this assembly of its deliberative character, and deprive it of all power to effect the purposes for which it was appointed." While we are sitting here deliberating on. the great interests of the State, candidly comparing our opinions, endeavoring to reconcile discordant views, adjust conflicting claims, secure every right, and protect every interest, ambiguous words are to be scattered among the people, scraps from newspapers and shreds of arguments to be circulated among them,—in a moment of tumultuous agitation, they are to be collected, at the hustings and muster grounds, at the taverns and cross roads, to form specific instructions, for their delegates on the most delicate and difficult of all the subjects of their deliberation, thus, depriving them of the power of making or receiving
making concessions, and putting an end to all further consultation. Can any considerate man be blind to the confusion and mischief to which such measures must tend?

Do not understand me, sir, as questioning the right of the constituent to instruct his representative;—this I regard as one of the settled doctrines of our government, to which I most cheerfully subscribe. But surely I cannot be mistaken in supposing that there never was a more unfit occasion for exercising it, than that on which the people have endeavored to put in requisition, the experience, the wisdom, and prudence of the State, & not to enact laws, but to propose for the consideration of the people themselves, amendments to their fundamental law. If this example is to be followed, had we not better return home, restore to the people the trust they have confided to us, tell them that all hope of amending their Constitution is perfectly illusory—that the solemn declaration of the right of the majority to reform, is indeed a visionary theory, since it is utterly impracticable for the people to exercise this right without the aid of representatives, and since those representatives cannot be trusted even to confer together, and propose amendments? I beg pardon for this digression, and will return to the question before the Committee—whether the compound or simple basis shall be preferred.

It has been urged as an objection to the report of the select committee, that it proposes to introduce something new into the Constitution. It certainly is not new to the American Republics, to apportion representation according to the ratio of white population; and whether it is new to our own constitution, it cannot be material to enquire, since the objection must equally lie against the proposed amendment. Both propose a change in the constitution, and the question is, which is preferable.

[Mr. Johnson's Speech to be Continued.]

RICHMOND, TUESDAY, DECEMBER 22.

SCENES IN THE CONVENTION.

The proceedings in the Convention on Saturday last, occupy nearly the broadside of this day's paper, besides 2 pages of the Extra, which accompanies it. We were unwilling to mutilate it and we knew no better mode of spreading before our readers, the results of perhaps the most memorable day of this protracted Convention.

It was interesting on many accounts. The "all-absorbing question" of the Basis of Representation came up again to be decided. The ayes and noes were called seven times during the day. The question assumed a variety of forms. The sense of the Convention was tried on Mr. Leigh's scheme of representation—It was tried on the plan of the Federal Basis in the H. of Delegates, and the White Basis in the Senate—It was tried on the mixed basis in the H. of D., and the federal basis in the Senate:—on the plan of taking Mr. Gordon's apportionment for the present, and a prospective re-apportionment in the year 1840, and every 20 years thereafter, founded on the number of free white inhabitants for the H. of D. and on the federal basis for the Senate. But, all these propositions were lost, and the last one, by an equal division of all the Convention, 48 to 48.—And finally the only proposition for the Basis of Representation, which was found to unite a majority of votes, was Mr. Gordon's resolution, which adopted no specified basis, and provided for no prospective apportionment. This resolution prevailed by a majority of 14 votes.

But what made this day still more interesting, were the Speeches which were delivered just before the vote was taken—As the chair was in the act of propounding the question, Mr. Cooke of Frederick arose to address the House. He rose to give his reasons at large for voting for Mr. Gordon's resolution—He was followed on the same side by Mr. Henderson of Loudoun—The speeches of these gentlemen are this day laid before our readers, and they will best speak for themselves. But we cannot transfer to this paper the earnest and emphatic and eloquent manner with which they poured forth their sentiments—Few are the scenes, which, during this Convention, have equalled this one in the intensity of feelings that it produced. The speeches of Messrs. Cooke and Henderson, successively called up Messrs. Thompson, Johnson, and Mercer—and the remarks of Mr. Mercer called up Mr. Upshur—and some scenes were developed to the House, which had been exhibited elsewhere, and which seem to have affected in no slight degree the Proceedings of the Convention itself.—The House did not adjourn til after sun-set having protracted their session nearly 6 hours.

Yesterday, a new scheme for future apportionment, founded on the basis of qualified voters, was presented by Mr. Stuart, laid upon the table and ordered to be printed.—After having passed through the remaining resolutions of the Legislative Committee, the Chair passed on to the Executive Report. The 1st amended resolution, which came up from the Committee of the Whole, directs the election of the Governor by the Legislature. Mr. Mercer proposed to elect him by the People—This amendment prevailed by a majority of 4 votes.—A Debate next came on, upon a proposition to constitute a controlling Executive Council of three members.— The motion failed, by a tie of the House—and then the resolution itself for appointing a Lieutenant Governor, in the same manner as the Governor, was also lost. —From the Debate which took place on these two propositions, it seemed sufficiently obvious, that the fate of Mr. Mercer's proposition had been affected by the basis of representation, one gentleman at least declaring that, since the vote of Saturday in favor of Mr. Gordon's resolution, he had determined to give the election of Governor to the People—and another declaring that since this last measure had been adopted, he had determined to give the Governor an Executive Council—And thus it is, that the "all-absorbing question" as it has been too truly called, is found mixing itself up with so many other questions!—We shall give these proceedings, at large, in our next paper.

Sketch of Proceedings of the Convention.

SATURDAY. Dec. 19

The Convention met at 11 o'clock and was opened with prayer by the Rev. Mr. Hoerner of the Catholic Church.

The question which came up in order from yesterday was on the adoption of Mr. Upshur's resolution as amended by Mr. Gordon—(in substance, the plan of Mr. Gordon, nothing of Mr. Upshur's being retained by the word "Resolved:") but the house not being yet full, it was suspended for the present: and the Convention proceeded to the consideration of the 6th resolution of the Legislative Committee, which is in the words following, viz:

"Resolved That no person ought to be elected a member of the Senate of this State, who is not at least: thirty years of age."

Mr. Gordon moved to amend the resolution by striking out 30, and inserting 25

On this motion, Mr. Chapman demanded the Yeas and Nays. They were ordered by the House, and being taken stood as follows:

Ayes.—Messrs. Barbour, (President,) Jones, Leigh and Taylor of Chesterfield, Giles, Brodnax, Dromgoole, Alexander, Goode, Marshall, Tyler, Nicholas, Clopton, Anderson, Harrison, Miller, Mason of S., Claiborne, Urquhart, Randolph, Leigh of H., Logan, Venable Henderson Osborne Griggs Mason of Campboll of W., Roane, Taylor of Car., Morris, Chapman, Oglesby, Morgan, Tazewell, Loyall, Prentis, Grigsby, Campbell of Bed., Saunders, Cabell, Staart, Gordon and Bayly—46.

Noes.—Messrs. Coffman, Williamson, Baldwin, Johnson, M'Coy, Moore, Beirne, Smith, Baxter, Trezvant, Madison, Stanard, Holladay, Mercer, Fitzhugh, Cooke, Powell, Boyd, Pendleton, George, M'Millan, Byars, Garnett, Cloyd, Mathews, Duncan, Laidley, Summers, See, Doddridge, Campbell of Brooke, Wilson, Barbour of C., Scott, Macrae, Green, Claytor, Branch, Townes, Martin, Pleasants, Thompson, Massie, Bates, Noale, Rose, Coalter, Joynes, Upshur and Perrin—50.

So the amendment was rejected. And the resolution, as reported, was agreed to

The House next took up the 7th resolution which is in the following words:

"Resolved," That no person ought to be elected a member of the House of Delegates of this State, who is not at least twenty-five years of age"

The question being put without debate, the resolution was agreed to, Ayes 95.

The House being now full, and every member in his place, on motion of Mr. Fitzhugh, the Convention returned to the "all absorbing question" of the Basis of representation: and the question being substantially, on the following plan (moved by Mr. Gordon as an amendment to Mr. Upshur's by way of substitute) viz:

"Resolved, That the representation in the Senate and House of Delegates of Virginia, shall be apportioned as follows:

There shall be 13 Senators west of the Blue Ridge of mountains and 19 east of those mountains.

There shall be in the House of Delegates, 127 members, of whom, 29 shall be elected from the District west of the Alleghany mountain; 24 from the Valley between the Alleghany and Blue Ridge, and 40 from the Blue Ridge to the head of tide-water, and 34 thence below."

A question of order arose as to the proper course to be pursued in order to get at the consideration of the proposition offered yesterday by Mr. Leigh: It could not be moved as an amendment to the proposition of Mr. Gordon by way of substitute, because Mr. Gordon's amendment had yesterday been agreed to by the House and could not be stricken out without a vote to reconsider. It could not be added to Mr. Gordon's amendment, because it was inconsistent with it, and contained a different plan. And it could not be taken up and considered as an original substantive proposition, because a rule of order adopted by the Convention required all such propositions to go first to a committee and be reported on.

After some conversation had taken place, and Mr. Stanard had moved to lay the proposition of Mr. Gordon on the table, with a view then to rescind the rule above referred to, and thus to arrive at the discussion of Mr. Leigh's proposition,

Mr. Doddridge said he was at a loss to conceive how the friends of Mr. Gordon's plan could consent to lay it on the table with a view to consider that of Mr. Leigh, which was obviously more hostile to their views. He then went into a comparison of the operation of the two propositions upon Western interests and came to this conclusion, that while the plan of Mr. Gordon secured to Eastern Virginia a majority of 21 that of Mr. Leigh gave them a majority of 27. The first he considered a great inroad on the rights of the Western portion of the State; but the latter was a still greater.

Mr. Gordon addressed the Committee as follows:

Mr. President: I greatly regret the excitement, either of expression or manner, apparent in this debate. I shall endeavour to avoid either, in what I may say. The proposition I submitted for the consideration of the Convention, was made in the hope of sinking the discussion on the basis of future apportionment of representation. My own opinion was, and is, that the white population, gave a fair criterion for a just arrangement of power among the several parts of the Commonwealth. We have, however, found the Convention equally divided in opinion; each positive and pertinacious, in opposing any plan of representation founded in the views of the other. This discussion had greatly agitated our councils, distracted our deliberations, and disturbed the quiet of the country. We had nothing to hope from prolonging it: nor can there now be any other purpose in continuing it, unless to rupture the Convention and send us home to a distracted and dissatisfied community, divided by a Geographical line, into two great hostile parties. Sir, it was in the hope of healing these divisions, that I ventured to propose to this Convention a plan for the present division of representative power in the State.

I thought long and anxiously on the subject. I made various calculations on the condition of the Commonwealth, drawn from statistics within my reach. Sir, the proposition which I have submitted, was not guess work; much less was it a scheme to give to one part of the Commonwealth a disproportionate and unjust power over the rights and interests of any other. It was proposed in a spirit of conciliation and compromise, violating no principle deemed correct by myself, and those with whom I had thought and acted; and, above all, in strict regard to what I considered just to every part of the state.

I found by calculations on the Census of 1820, the only authentic document of population within our power, that the present apportionment of representation in the House of Delegates was greatly unequal throughout the state, and among its several parts. That in a House of Delegates of 214 members, the 26 Counties, West of the Alleghany mountains, composing the 1st Western district, had 52 Delegates, when, by the white numbers of 1820, they were entitled to only 47: that the section of the State, below tide-water, with 36 counties and 4 towns, had 76 delegates, whilst they were entitled to but 59: That the Valley or 2nd western district, with 14 counties and 28 delegates, was entitled to 42, and that the Middle Country of Virginia, from which I come, with 29 counties, had 58 delegates, and was entitled to 66: That the two last mentioned sub-divisions of the State, the Valley and Middle Sections, had a majority of 7,742 white population, of 22,562 slaves, and paid of the taxes of 1828, 17,926, more than the other two, or the extreme west and eastern divisions. That these two central contiguous districts of country, containing a majority of whites, a majority of slaves, and paying greatly more than half the revenue of the State, had a vote in the House of Delegates, as 86 is to 214. Sir, the glaring inequality of representation, has not, and cannot be met by any argument, and challenges universal assent to its injustice. Do gentlemen suppose that I, as one of the representatives from one of the largest and most populous districts in Virginia, both as to white and Federal numbers, was insensible of its true interests, or was disposed to abandon them? I assure gentlemen the proposition I have submitted for their consideration, was not a leap in the dark. My first proposal was to reduce the House of Delegates to 120 (I added 7 members to satisfy the wishes of some of the Convention.) I made various estimates on the different propositions for apportionment, suggested to the Convention by others, or that presented themselves to my own mind. I found that if taxation alone was the basis of representation in a house of 120 members, the 29 counties composing the 1st western district, would have 11 1-2. The 2nd western or Valley District. 17 1-2, the 1st eastern or Middle District, 46 1-2, the 2nd eastern or Lower District, 44 1-2. If the Federal number, the 1st district 20, the 2nd 19, the 3rd 43 1-2, and the 4th 37 1-2. If the combined ratio of numbers and taxation, the 1st district 19, the 2nd 30 3-4, the 3rd 42, the 4th 38 1-4 members: on the federal numbers of the Auditor's estimate of the present population, the 1st district would have 24, the 2nd 21, the 3rd 44, and the 4th 38 members. Sir. I made other estimates from the Auditor's statement of the taxes of 1828. Dividing the whole amount of taxes or revenue, by the whole number of delegates in our present H. of D, I found that if all parts of the State paid equally, the average for each member, should be 1,872. I then made a comparative estimate of the taxation and representation of each section of the State—I found that the 1st western section paid $751 per member, the 2nd western or Valley District paid $2,233 per member, the 3rd or middle district 2,830, & the 4th or 2d eastern District paid $1,684 per member. Sir, I give these estimates in no spirit of reproach to that Western District, for the small contributions to the Treasury, in proportion to their actual representative power in the government, but to admonish gentlemen who complain that my proposition does injustice to their country, that they should not forget, that in Committee of the Whole, 40 members of this Convention rose in favor of a proposition to base representation on taxation alone. Sir, when it is conceded on all hands, that, without a spirit of temperance and moderation, no good can result from our deliberations, I ask what injustice my proposition can do to the West? On the contrary, is it not fair and liberal? It gives to the whole country west of the Blue Ridge, within a very few members of what it would be entitled to upon the present uncertain estimate of the auditor of the white population of the State, and it gives to the Valley all, all it claims for the present on any scheme of representation and to the trans-Alleghany country 8, more than it would be entitled to by the Census of 1820. on white population alone. Sir, is not this a fair and liberal estimate for the West? Does it not give all that it may fairly claim for the present? What do gentlemen ask: that we should give a rule of future apportionment: without fixing the representation for the present? Can our Brethren of the West think it would be right or reasonable in us of the East. who represent a country containing nearly 1-2 a million of Bondsmen. whilst they have comparatively but few, to return to our Constituents the masters of these slaves, without being able to tell them what will be the actual state of their representation in the Legislature? What will be the actual and relative power of each section of the State in regard to this great and delicate interest? Sir. the people of Virginia would ratify no Constitution, looking to a prospective census, which did not fix the present representation of its respective Districts—The very anxious suspense and uncertainty on that subject, after the agitations which have been excited here and elsewhere, would make them reject any constitution you can propose, and content them to live under the present constitution, unequal as the distribution of power under it. undoubtedly is. Sir, when I first presented my plan of representation, I thought it would be acceptable to the West, because, I was sure, it did them ample justice, and was not subject to be criticised, from containing in its principles any element peculiarly objectionable to them.— In presenting it I looked to the rights and interests of the whole state—acknowledging as I always do, my peculiar obligations and duties to my immediate constituents. I feel and have felt that their interests will on this occasion be best subserved by looking with an enlarged view to the rights and interests of the whole. rather than to a perpetuation of sectional strife, in which they, nor any who love their country, can take delight. With these views. the proposition was submitted and has been sustained. The first proposition was the result of an estimate of the white population of 1820—modified from 120 members to 127, to accommodate the views and to endeavour to sink the debate on that vexed question. Sir, one great objection I always had to bringing this federal number or mixed basis under discussion, was an anticipation of the heat and unhappiness it would engender; and a strong objection would be an element of faction, a seed of discord, fatal to the permanence of the constitution. If you do put it in the constitution, cannot the non-slave holding part of the State, excite you on this subject whenever they may have a purpose to answer by it—and you may have a Missouri question, of perpetual recurrence in the heart of your institutions. Sir, no constitution you can form, situated as Virginia is, can endure with such provision in it. The non-freeholders and non-slave-owners, who are excluded from the right of suffrage, will be the lever to wrench your institutions from such foundations—they will not be insensible to the appeal, that this fair domain of Virginia, was conquered by their fathers in many a battle bravely won—that they established a republican form of government, leaving its administration in the hands of the freeholders—that after 54 years of possession of this exclusive power, they delegated their men of age and wisdom, who met in council to liberalize their institutions and fix the foundations of future government, but that such had been the influence of long submission to unequal power, that they not only refused to extend the right of suffrage to the freemen of the country, but they infused a new element of power—they made their slaves the basis, in part, of representation, whilst those who guard them in their subjugation, are denied a voice in their council and in elections. Sir, I will not pursue this subject, but ask gentlemen to reflect. Can a government so based, be permanent? Will it not contain within itself the fatal germ of its own destruction, after years of strife and confusion? Sir, is it wise in a slave-holding community to keep up this discussion? If we do not put this ingredient in our cup, may we not fairly appeal to the just sympathies of our Western brethren? Not from any apprehension of danger personal to ourselves. Those who have commanded slaves, can never become so themselves; the spirit of command endures through life. But when they reflect that we are hereditary masters of men born in slavery; that our condition is unalterable at present; that theirs is every day more and more assimilated to ours; that their interests and ours equally combine to allay this excitement and look to Virginia as one great united Commonwealth, I am sure the appeal will not be in vain. Sir, we ought to meet on this middle ground of the census of 1820, notwithstanding the West sets up a higher claim. But, Sir, whatever may be the result; I shall have the consolation to reflect, that I have discovered no narrow selfishness in the plan I have submitted, as my own gives to that portion of the Commonwealth from which I come, a just, but smaller portion of power, than has been offered by others, and that true to my principles and my country, I have made an honest effort to advance her peace and honor. I hope the Convention will give to the proposition of the gentleman from Chesterfield, a candid consideration. I am not vain enough to believe, I have proposed a perfect plan, but think it better calculated to combine a majority of the Convention than any other.

Mr. Massie made an explanation as to his course in voting for Mr. Gordon's amendment yesterday (which he understood to have been referred to in some of the remarks of Mr. Doddridge;) he had voted for it as a compromise; despairing of carrying the white basis by any majority that would carry weight with it. He referred to the situation of his district as located in the middle between the conflicting parties; its deep interest in the questions agitated, and his belief that in voting for Mr. Gordon's compromise he took what approached the nearest to the views of his Constituents.

Mr. Johnson was in favour of laying the present proposition upon the table, in order that that of Mr. Leigh might be fairly considered. As to the rule which stood in the way, it had been adopted at his motion, had now done all he intended it to do, and might be dispensed with.

The proposition of Mr. Gordon was then laid upon the table for the present.

The rule requiring every original proposition offered in Convention to be referred to a Committee and reported upon, was then, after some opposition from Mr. Mercer. rescinded.

Mr. Leigh's proposition was then read from the Chair, as follows:

That the House of Delegates shall consist of 139 members, and the representation therein shall be apportioned as follows:

The 25 counties lying West of the Alleghany shall have 32 Delegates.

The 14 counties lying between the Alleghany and Blue Ridge shall have 24 Delegates.

The 29 counties lying East of the Blue Ridge and above tide water shall have 45 Delegates.

And the 36 counties and 4 towns lying on tide water shall have 38 Delegates.

No more new counties shall ever be formed of the country lying East of the Blue Ridge, but the Legislature may in its discretion, from time to time, a majority of the whole number of both Houses concurring, whensoever the increase of the population of the country West of the Blue Ridge and the more convenient administration of justice and police shall require, form new counties not exceeding ten out of the territory lying West of the Blue Ridge, and whenever such new county shall be formed, an additional delegate shall be allowed to the country West of the Blue Ridge.

And the Legislature having respect to the relative state of population of the respective counties, cities, towns and election Districts. and a majority of the whole number of both Houses concurring, may, at any time, allow one additional Delegate to any county, city, town or election district, now existing or to be formed, and to which only one Delegate shall in the first instance be allowed; so that not more than two delegates shall ever be allowed to any county, city or election District; and so that the number of the House of Delegates shall never exceed 160 members.

Mr. Leigh then rose in explanation and defence of his proposition. He premised, in the outset. that all he was now solicitous about, was the principle of the plan, without insisting on its details, or attempting to present, with exact precision, all the results to which it would lead : he only meant to shew its modus operandi— how it would work generally. He repeated, (what he had declared when he first offered it.) his entire and perfect indifference as to the details, so far as they might, affect his own District.

He assured the Convention, that he never went to any work, with more reluctance, in his life, than to that of tendering this plan of compromise, in his own person. No consideration, short of the absolute necessity of the case, should have induced him to do it. If any other gentleman, holding his opinions, would have undertaken to prepare and present this, or any similar plan, the House should not have heard one word from him : he would have been well content to give it only his silent support. He knew, perfectly well, that there was a portion of the members of the Convention, who, without indulging any personal hostility or ill will towards him, felt, nevertheless, an extreme jealousy of any propositions he might offer, merely for being presented by him.—Some. because they asserted an exclusive claim to republicanism, and thought it necessary to suppose, that his mind was possessed with anti-republican principles—others, from a belief, that he was actuated by a strong jealousy of Western interests—but, from whatever cause, he knew that such a prejudice did exist, just as well as if gentlemen had avowed it to him : he only desired to look into a man's face, to know how he felt affected toward him, and measures coming from him. I would have avoided incurring this obstacle to the success of his present proposal, if it had been in his power, to the end that it might get fair play, and stand or fall by its own merits alone; but that being impracticable, he had offered it, to take its fate. He should now, as briefly as he could. explain it to the House.

Nothing had filled him with more surprise, than to find, that gentlemen of the Valley should prefer the plan of the gentleman from Albemarle, (Mr. Gordon.) to that he now offered. He said gentlemen of the Valley : because, after the speech which the House had heard yesterday. (Mr. Summers's.) and this morning, (Mr. Doddridge's,) he saw that there was a feeling in the trans-Alleghany country, which, he should think, gentlemen from the Valley would be quite as much alarmed at, as gentlemen from Eastern Virginia: but that was a question for them, and not for him to judge of.

The substantial difference between his plan, and that of the gentleman from Albemarle, lay in two points only : first, there was a slight difference in the proportions of representation assigned to the four great divisions of the State respectively—(he should not speak of the slight difference as to the whole number of the H. of Delegates)—and secondly, that the gentleman's proposition contained within it, no provision for settling this vexed controversy hereafter; though it did, (what alone it professed to do.) provide for settling that controversy for the present. The gentleman, out of a H. of Delegates consisting of 127 members, assigned to the West very nearly the exact proportion, to which it would be entitled, on the principle of the white basis, (so called.) according to the Census of 1820 : probably not varying as to the number of representatives, more than a unit, in either of the four divisions of the Commonwealth.— Now, this near approach to "the principles of justice." (as the gentleman from Brooke, (Mr. Doddridge,) always called them,—assuming, that all other principles but his own, are unjust and oppressive,) was his principal objection to that arrangement. The gentleman from Albemarle was, he knew, of the same opinion with the gentleman from Brooke, as to the justice of the principles of the white basis : he had avowed that opinion. Mr. L. was not now going into that question : but he was going to discuss this question, viz: what is the best practicable mode, (if any mode be practicable,) to sink that controversy forever. If he could shew the gentleman from Albemarle, that his (Mr. L's) plan was more likely to accomplish this object, than his own, he hoped, from that gentleman's candour, that he should have his support.

He concurred entirely with that gentleman in the opinion, and in the feeling he had expressed on that subject; sound policy required of every statesman to sink that distracting controversy then and forever. And he was greatly mistaken If there was a gentleman in the House, who would not acknowledge, that the very agitation of it had not, already, of itself, produced a greater amount of evil, than could be compensated by any possible good which any conceivable amendment of the constitution, which this convention could make, would ever produce.

Supposing the proposition of the gentleman from Albemarle to be adopted, its distribution of representation, as between the four great divisions of the State, was to be unchangeable, fixed, permanent. Could that gentleman suppose, that he cank the controversy in question by that provision? Could he expect, that those, who were so extremely anxious for the establishment of what they considered as the only true republican basis of government, would make no effort to get a new convention for the purpose of establishing such a basis? If the gentleman hoped this, he must be far more sanguine than he was.

Or did he hope, that any constitution, in any conceivable shape, would not, in its actual operation, engender discontents, which those gentlemen could use as an instrument to effect a new convention? Could he imagine, that any constitution could be devised by this convention, or by the wit of man, that would exempt this community from evils, and sore evils too? If the gentleman knew, as he must know, that every work of man was necessarily imperfect. he could not but own that many and great evils must exist under any possible form of government, and that the question concerning the merit of every government under the sun, was only this,—whether the sum of good it produced was the greatest practicable, instead of the greatest desirable? Any constitution that could be devised would cause some discontents, reasonable or unreasonable discontents, which might be inflamed at any time. when any great question of geographical and political interests was to be decided.

Mr. L. said he would be content to take the apportionment of the gentleman from Albemarle, if that gentleman could shew him that it could be fixed as a permanent rule of apportionment. His great objection to it was, that it could not be made so. All that it did, or could do, was to settle it for the present—for the present in that sense of the word, in which, while we are yet speaking, present has passed away. The rule would be overturned, the very moment the question could be submitted to the people, whether it should continue;— instantly. Both sides would unite against it. It settled nothing:—it left us just where we were. It left the great basis question to agitate the community, till all the community shall be dissolved between the disputants.

Mr. L. said he now prophesied, that that struggle, if persisted in, would end in the dissolution of the commonwealth. He went on this principle, established by long experience, that whenever men have a controversy on matters of interest, that continues for a long time, it is sure to end in a separation. He was for avoiding this, if it were possible to avoid it by fair and just means.

The gentleman from Frederick (Mr. Cooke) had presented a different proposition. (See yesterday's report.) He was for taking the proportions of representation, assigned by the plan of the gentleman from Albemarle, as a present arrangement, and providing for a new apportionment after the year 1840, to be entrusted entirely to Legislative discretion. He Mr. L. had given this plan as full a consideration as the time would enable him. At the first view of it, he had been strongly disposed to give it his assent. As the proposition of the gentleman from Albemarle gave to the cis-montane country a majority of 21 in the lower House. and 6 in the Senate, he had supposed, that the future apportionment might be left with safety to a Legislature thus constituted. "But, on farther reflection, he found that there was one reason operating so strongly against its adoption, that he was compelled to reject it : that reason was. that it defeated the great end he had in view. which was to sink the controversy between East and West. For, supposing representation in both Houses to be distributed according to the proposition of the gentleman from Albemarle, and the prospect to be held out of a new apportionment in 1840, and no principle settled as a rule for that apportionment, it was only making provision for a party war to last as long as the siege of Troy, to be prosecuted for ten long years, with the utmost zeal and ability that could be furnished by both sides. He asked gentlemen if they did not feel and see this consequence ? The moment such a plan should be submitted to the West, they would be told "yes. accept this for the present—for in ten years the Legislature will have "come to a sense of justice"—and we shall then have representation based upon the white population exclusively." The leaders of that party would keep that idea constantly before the minds of the People. And did they suppose, that the other party would remain perfectly silent!? Did any one persuade himself, that if pamphlets and newspaper essays were resorted to and multiplied in the West, that essays and pamphlets would not be written in the East, with at least as much fluency and zeal, if not the same ability?— [Looking toward Mr. Cooke.] For one, he promised gentlemen, that if God should spare his life, the question should be met with as much earnestness and diligence, on this side the mountains, as on the other— and if success depended on Zeal, earnestness and sincerity, he thought he should stand as good a chance for success as any one—they had no more zealous advocate for their principles than he was for his, and should be (he believed) to the day of his death. Though (said he) I have changed many of my opinions since you, Sir, and I were together at College, I do not expect after arriving at my time of life, to change them again.

Mr. L. again insisted, that the proposition of Mr. Cooke, was the proclamation of a Troy war between the two great parties of the State. This was his objection to it. That war he wished to end now, and avert hereafter. But the proposition of the gentleman from Albemarle, renewed it at once—immediately; while that of the gentleman from Frederick, would keep it up, without decision, till 1840. What new feuds or flames might arise in that period of time, it was not for the wisdom of man to foreknow. The war had endured now since 1824; and who could be ignorant, that in the course of its prosecution, many who had once been bound by the strongest attachment, had become entirely alienated? Some, who reposed unbounded political confidence in each other, had found all bonds dissolved, and hostility planted, where nothing but peace and harmony once reigned. He knew this to be the fact; and it was impossible that others could be blind to it. His own temper was to fight as hard as he could, while the battle raged, and to forget all, as soon as it was over.—Give him a short war, as hard as they pleased : Only, in the name of Heaven, let it be short: and then, when peace comes, let it be sincere and hearty peace. He was for no ten years war. He preferred that the controversy should be decided at once, at the point of the bayonet, (the bayonet he referred to, was the vote of the people : votes were the only bayonets he hoped ever to see employed in this contest,) let it rather be decided at once, upon the question of accepting or rejecting the proposition of the gentleman from Albemarle. He had rather have that, than the plan of the gentleman from Frederick, with that ten years war to follow it. That of the gentleman from Albemarle, brought them first to the charge: and if they must come to it, the sooner the better, always.

As to the plan he had submitted. he said, he did not address himself to any who thought that the best way to reform was to begin by demolition; nor to any who thought there was a Best in Government which applied to all mankind, in all times, places, and circumstances; nor to any who thought that they were bound to any certain set of abstract principles. as being the only Republican principles which did or could exist, or who were of opinion, that the particular circumstances of Virginia ought not to be regarded. He spoke to those only who thought that they ought to suit our institutions to our condition. All those who thought that one who did not advocate the "white basis" could not be a republican, of course, thought him an aristocrat, and were ready to fix the name of mad-dog upon him according to; and to keep clear of all communication with him, for fear of a bite.

But, he asked the consideration of his proposition upon its own merits alone. Let it be separated from its author, and judged by itself.

It was his opinion that in the trans-Alleghany country there ought, in a short time, to be a farther division of counties, for the more convenient administration of justice and for the purposes of internal police. He was willing to give them a Republican Government in reality; so that the representative should be personally known by his constituents, and they by him, and that he might truly represent their views and wants in the Legislature. He therefore provided for the erection of ten new counties to the West of the Ridge, which would reduce the majority on this side the mountains to 17. Did he do nothing else? Should the counties in the Valley increase in population and improvement, and the trans-Alleghany country also, to the extent of their own most sanguine hopes and calculations. or should they even attain to one half of what was so confidently predicted, he had provided that the Legislature should have power to assign to any of them one additional Representative, so that it should thenceforth have two. Or he had no objection to extend this to three, should the proportional increase of population require it, and their representation might be equalized as far as practicable; and in this case, he would allow 180, as the maximum number of the House of Delegates.— The Legislature, having respect to population and increase, might increase the representation in all parts of the State. He had not confined this provision to the West only.

Let gentlemen from that portion of the State say what they pleased, so long as he looked at the face of the country, such as the hand of God, had made it, he must ever be of opinion, that the greatest increase of Virginian population must take place in the middle country until it should become very dense; and then it would naturally seek the tide water country, where the waters teemed with subsistence for man. This. however. was looking forward to a remote period indeed. But the chief increase would, at all times. happen in the Valley and in the midland district. Mr. Leigh said he had no objection, that that portion of the State should hold the balance of power. He told gentlemen from the West, that he hoped they might increase in population to the utmost extent of their desires; and he had accordingly provided to meet that growth by a proportionate increase of power. He was perfectly content with this. He had no objections in the world to their obtaining power in this way; because they—would then be compelled to pay their share of the taxes of the commonwealth: as soon as they were compelled to tax themselves as well as us, they might tax him and welcome. That was all he asked. That was all the safeguard he should ever require.

Mr. L. observed, in conclusion, that these views were perfectly plain and simple. Had such propositions come from Western members, he should have hailed them with the sincerest joy. And he was persuaded that nothing but the interminable contest about the "white basis" had prevented such an event. Yet he made no complaint on that subject: he uttered no censure on the course gentlemen had thought it right to pursue: they were certainly the best judges of their own course. He hoped he should not be left alone in the support of the scheme he had proposed; but that it would receive the countenance of those who possessed in so large a degree, what he did not—he meant, weight of character.

Mr. Cooke rose in reply.—[See EXTRA, accompanying this day's paper.]

The question being about to be put on Mr. Leigh's proposition, Mr. George demanded the yeas and nays, and they were ordered by the House.

Mr. Scott said he did not see any good reason why no new counties were ever to be formed East of the Blue Ridge. He could not vote for the proposition in its present form, and wishing to give it his support, he moved as an amendment, to strike out the clause making that provision.

The motion was negatived—Ayes 23.

Mr. Stanard proposed to amend the proposition so as to allow to each county three representatives when the increase of its population would render it proper.

Mr. Leigh accepted this as a modification.

But Mr. Henderson objecting, the question was taken on Mr. Stanard's amendment, and decided in the negative.

The question was then taken on Mr. Leigh's scheme and decided by yeas and nays. as follows:

Ayes.—Messrs. Jones, Leigh and Taylor of Ch., Giles, Brodnax, Dromgoole, Alexander, Goode, Nicholas, Mason of S., Trezvant, Claiborne, Urquhart, Randolph, Leigh of H., Logan, Venable, Stanard, Holladay, Roane, Taylor of Car., Morris, Garnett, Tazewell, Loyall, Prentis, Grigsby, Coalter, Joynes and Bayly—30.

Noes.—Messrs. Barbour, (P.) Marshall, Tyler, Clopton, Anderson, Coffman, Harrison, Williamson, Baldwin, Johnson, M'Coy. Moore, Beirne, Smith, Miller, Baxter, Madison, Mercer, Fitzhugh, Henderson, Osborne, Cooke, Powell, Griggs, Mason of F., Naylor, Donaldson, Boyd, Pendleton, George, M'Millan, Campbell of W. Byars, Cloyd, Chapman, Mathews, Oglesby, Duncan, Laidley, Summers, See, Doddridge, Morgan, Campbell of Brooke, Wilson Barbour of C., Scott, Macrae, Green, Campbell of Bed., Claytor, Saunders, Branch, Townes, Cabell, Martin, Stuart, Pleasants, Gordon, Thompson, Massie, Bates, Neale, Rose, Upshur and Perrin—66.

So the proposition of Mr. Leigh was rejected.

The question now recurring on Mr. Gordon's plan,

Mr. Doddridge offered the following amendment:

"After the year 1840, and every ten years thereafter, there shall be a new apportionment of representation, and a new assessment of land taxes—each apportionment of representation shall be made in the following manner and on the following basis : viz the number of free white inhabitants in the House of Delegates, and the Federal basis in the Senate."

Mr. Powell moved to amend the amendment of Mr. Doddridge by striking therefrom the words "after the next Census" and inserting, in lieu thereof, "after the year 1840."

Mr. Doddridge accepted this as a modification.

Mr. Thompson moved to insert "1850," instead of 1840.

Mr. Doddridge then rose and addressed the Convention nearly as follows:

Mr. President—I again submit, and perhaps for the last time, the proposition under consideration. The delegation of which I am part, cannot assure the House that their constituents will adopt a Constitution founded on it. We believe they will, if the other provisions are acceptable. This is all that we can say, and our consolation is, that they are not bound by our act unless they chuse to adopt it.

I agree with the gentleman from Chesterfield, in most of the remark with which he introduced his plan of apportionment just rejected. I agree with him, that should the proposition of the gentleman from Frederick. (Mr. Cooke) be adopted with that of the gentleman from Albemarle, (Mr. Gordon) the siege of Troy will soon commence. It will have begun as soon as we can see our constituents, and perhaps before. That war may be of longer continuance than the siege of Troy.— It will certainly continue until it will have subdued the injustice proposed to be inflicted by those propositions. The gentleman from Chesterfield supposes, that unless some rule for future apportionment shall be established, or some permanent regulation that will render future popular appeals unnecessary—in short, should the proposition of the member from Frederick prevail, those seeds of interminable discord will be scattered through the country, which nothing but another Convention or a division of the State can eradicate. I agree with the gentleman perfectly. I agree that nothing short of a permanent provision for future apportionment can avert the calamity deprecated. But to produce the beneficial effects of averting discord or division, the rule. of future apportionments must be just. It must secure the rights and accord with the common sense, of the great body of the people. Had the proposition of the gentleman prevailed, the war would have begun instantly—and would have commenced, not only against the present assumed basis, but against the gross injustice, in my opinion, of its prospective operation. The gentleman supposes that no good can result from, the rule proposed by the member from Frederick, because it settles no governing principle; and while I concur in this opinion, will oppose it for another—the inequality of its present basis, and the total want of security for the fair exercise of the power to be conferred.

Mr. President, although not strictly in order, I will bestow a few remarks on the proposition of the gentleman from Chesterfield, just rejected, in order the better to illustrate my objections to the amendment of the gentleman from Albemarle, considering the latter as an entire whole, or as carried out by the proposition of the gentleman from Frederick.

The amendment of the gentleman from Albemarle looks to the state of population in 1820. It reposes on the federal census of that year. Had there been no relative change of population since, and were we satisfied that none is likely to happen, that amendment might be acceptable. It would work no great injustice; but the effect of adopting it now, either with or without its proposed adjunct, can only be illustrated by a statistical view, which I beg leave to present, much as I dislike this species of labour.

In 1810, the white population was distributed thus, viz:

East of the Blue Ridge, 333,837

In the Valley, 108,335

West of the Alleghany 104,377

212,726

682,251

It thus appears that in 19 years, white population east of the Blue Ridge, beginning with 333,837, has increased to 362,745, or to the amount of 28,908. The increase in the Valley having in 1810, 108,335, has been 29,779—making in 1829. 138,114. These data shew that the increase in the Valley and in the whole East are nearly equal—that in the Valley being the smallest only, by a difference of 871. As the Valley has kept pace with the whole East for 19 years past, so it probably will hereafter, and therefore, a permanent apportionment which would do justice to the present Valley and Eastern population with reference to each other, might probably suit them in all future time; yet, the same apportionment might operate the utmost excess of cruelty and injustice to the Trans-Alleghany country. To concur in such an one, would be a treachery in the Valley. of which we have not the least apprehension. The extent of this injustice will be manifested by comparing the increase of that population during the same period of 19 years. In 1810, we commenced with a population of 104,377, which, in 1829, is 181,384, having increased 77,007, or four times as much as either the Valley or all the country East of the Blue Ridge Mountains.

I have already observed, that the plan of the gentleman from Albemarle rests on the census of 1820. To sum up its unquestionable injustice, I will, for the present, assume the general correctness of the Auditor's estimate. I will presently allude to that estimate more particularly, and for a different purpose. The increase of Western population since 1820, is 81,336, after deducting from the Western the whole Eastern increase. According to the Albemarle plan, 81,336 white people residing West of the Blue Ridge, are to go unrepresented from the present moment, and they, with all future relative increase in the West, are not only excluded now by the amendment of the gentleman from Albemarle, but will be forever by the adjunct of the gentleman from Frederick, should that, also, be adopted.

Mr. President.—I will now expose numerically. the injustice offered by the gentleman from Albemarle. under the name of compromise. This I will do first and then follow this scheme into its adjunct proposed. I should say, not offered by the gentleman from Frederick.

First, then, let me observe, that if the present white population are to be represented by 127 members in the House of Delegates, each Delegate will represent 5,379 white people—or, in other words, every section of 5,379 white people ought to elect a delegate in this same House of 127 members. The proportion East. being deducted from the proportion West, leaves a difference equal to 6 1-2 members. This may be thus demonstrated: According to the Auditor's estimate, the whole white population, amounts to 682,261—of which the western population amounts to 319,616. The gentleman from Albemarle proposes an House of 127 members. The number to which the West are entitled by their population is thus proved:

Whole white population 682,261—entitled to members 127.

To what number the West?

First, whole West. 319,616 to 682,261:127::159,525:133

Of which 59 members, and in half the Valley and trans-Alleghany country, are entitled as follows, viz:

1st, Valley, 682,261:127::138,124:25

West of Alleghany, 682.261:127::181,394:33

So far I have calculated by the estimate of the Auditor. If population had not relatively changed the gentleman's amendment is not far from what is right. By the Census of 1820, we were entitled to 53 members and a fraction, and the East to 73 and a fraction. This would give the East a majority to the East of 20 members, but the gentleman from Albemarle turning these fractions to the best account, takes them all to the East, and makes out of them an unit, and thus gives the East a majority of twenty-one members.

Mr. President—When we stood on the whole basis in this House as 49 to 47 members, we represented 402 thousand. and you 250 thousand white people. This great majority was very encouraging. I admit it is now considerably lessened, having lost part of the Albemarle delegation. The majority is yet great enough to be respected. My friend from Albemarle overlooks all changes of population since 1820, because we have no official tabulations of it since then—in doing this, the gentleman takes from the West 6 1-2 members to which they are now entitled, and adds that number to the East, which makes a difference of 13 members. Then taking to the East its rightful majority of members according to present population, and making a judicious application of fractions, he adds 8 more members, and thus acquires his majority of 21 members.

The power thus to be conferred on the East by taking from the West 6 1-2 members, and adding them to the East, is immense. It is irresistible. But then it is not professedly taken as a slave or other property representation, and therefore it can be voted for by those whose consciences will not permit them to sustain a property basis of any kind. On what basis then does the gentleman from Albemarle rest his apportionment? Certainly not the present white basis which I had thought we both came here to maintain. But it is said to be founded on the white basis of 1820, and that we have no regular table of population since. This, Mr. President, might do if we were ignorant of the fact. The gentleman takes power from us to give it to the East. This is not done on the mixed, federal, or any other bases, of property whatever; but it is done—It is power that is taken, and power, after all, is power, and is the very thing demanded by the East, by every basis they have proposed.

The gentleman from Chesterfield, and his friends, admonished us, very early in this debate, that interest is a tyrant passion not to be controlled in political transactions by all the restraints of power, religion, duty, or even of oaths, and that, indeed, there was no security against its influence but in the possession of power to resist it. Our present struggle has shewn that there is too much truth in this lesson, at least where perpetual power is the object in view.

Knowing well the late increase of Western, over Eastern population, I foresaw last winter the propriety of a census of it to be laid before this Convention: I had the honor to offer a measure for it in the late House of Delegates. That measure was supported by those, who I believe, represented a majority of the people.— It was rejected, but by whom.? A majority who represented a minority. and who would not permit an official table to be laid before this body. They had the power to shut out this light, and they exercised it, because they had it, and because it suited their purposes to conceal the truth from our eyes. The consequence is, that when I complain of the inequality of the proposed apportionment, I must rely on the present state of population, and on the Auditor's statement of its probable condition. But although this is relying on an estimate. I think I will satisfy every man who understands the rule of three, that this estimate may be relied on, as sufficiently accurate for the present purpose. I will assume it as a fact, that those paying a tax on lands or on property, bore about the same ratio to the whole white population in 1790; 1800, 1810 and 1820, that they did in 1829 In each of these years there was a census of population taken, and in each, the Auditor's office will shew the numbers of persons—paying a land tax, and the number paying a property tax. The property tax book, is the safest document, because those paying that tax are residents. What difficulty is there in ascertaining what ratio the numbers of those paying a property tax in any county. bore to the white population of the same county in 1790; in 1800, 1810 and 1820? And. as the Auditor possesses the tax books for 1829, what danger is there of falling into any great error by assuming that the tax-payers of 1829, bear the same proportion to the present white population that they did, in the several years when a census was taken? I have tried this on the tables of several counties, and there is no difficulty in it. There is a difficulty, not in arriving at a knowledge of the fact, but in the proof. When we assert that which every man may know to a reasonable certainty, if he will. we cannot maintain our assertion by record proof. I trust I have proved, satisfactorily, that the plan of the gentleman from Albemarle, is to create an House of Delegates of 127 members, and in which the East is to have a majority of 21. being 14, or at the very least. thirteen more than the East are entitled to by any fair principle: An House of Delegates. in which the East is to possess uncontrollable power, in the first instance.. To such an House of Delegates. it is, that the gentleman from Frederick, proposes to give power to re-apportion representation, after 1840 or 1841, without compelling them to observe any particular ratio, principle or basis.

Will such an House of Delegates part with their power? Does my friend hope, much less believe it?— Before we can believe these people will impair their. own authority willingly, we must absolutely forget what happened so short a time ago as last winter, and all that we behold here every day, with our own eyes. This would be perpetuating power to be sure; but then it will be an unequal and oppressive power, and it would only differ in degree from that just view proposed by the gentleman from Chesterfield, whose plan of power, present and future. has just been rejected.

The gentleman from Albemarle, proposes an House of Delegates of 127 members, 53 of whom are to be West of the Blue Ridge, and of these 53, twenty-nine are to be West of the Alleghany, and 24 in the Valley, The gentleman from Chesterfield, proposed the whole number of the House of Delegates to be 139—that is to add to the number of the gentleman from Albemarle— 12. Of these. he proposed to give to the country West of the Alleghany 3. making their number 32—giving to the Valley nothing in addition. Now. in his proposed House of Delegates of 139 members, the 32 he proposes for the extreme West, bears the same relative—proportion to 139, as the number 29. did to the others whole number 127. The difference, then, between— the two plans, was precisely this : The gentleman from. Albemarle, would commence with 53 West and 74. East; and the gentleman from Chesterfield, with 56 West and 83 East,—giving to the East at the commencement, a majority of 27. instead of 21.

But, the gentleman from Chesterfield, allows 10 new counties, to be created in the West, and on that account. 10 additional members to be granted to the West. Even this he refers to the discretion of the powers that be— to be exercised by a majority of the members of each House.—By his scheme, this whole power might be exhausted, by one legislative act of the first Legislature, under the new Constitution. Suppose, then, the most favorable result that 10 new counties should be made, and 10 additional members given to the West: Then the West would have 66 members; and if eleven should be added to the East, that would give the East 94 members, and thus there would be an House of Delegates of 160 members—the largest number he would allow—in which the East would have, in all future time, a majority of 28, if even the Eastern population should be stationary, and the West increase to a million.

I am satisfied, Mr. President, that if a Constitution should be offered to the People, on either of those plans, it would, nay, must be rejected by the People. And, as I before said, I would infinitely prefer to do nothing.

Mr. Leigh observed, that he had nothing to say in relation to his own proposition. He considered its end as defeated the moment the gentleman from Frederick declared that all the West would vote against it because he presumed him to speak from certain knowledge He had only presented it as a scheme for conciliation; it failed of its end, and from that moment all its value was lost. But, now, they had a proposition by which the property of the East was secured to it for ten years, with a reversion in favour of the West after that time. A gentleman from Amherst (Mr. Thompson) seemed to think the East would surely be content if they had that possession extended to twenty years! they would not certainly repine if they were allowed a life estate in their property. 'But, I for one, he preferred the simple proposition of the gentleman from Albemarle without any addition whatever, to any scheme which should contain the admission that sooner or later the property of the East was to pass over into the possession of the West.

Mr. Thompson said he had offered the amendment with a view to making the proposition more acceptable to gentlemen from the East. He had understood it to have been admitted all along, that the period would arrive when the balance of power would pass into the hands of the West. That period, if he recollected right, had been fixed by the gentleman from Chesterfield himself at about the year 1855.

Whole population,	551,553
In 1820, population was distributed thus, viz:
East of the Blue Ridge,	348,875
In the Valley,	121,196
West of the Alleghany,	133,112

Whole population,	603,081
And in 1829, the white population, as estimated by the Auditor, stood thus:
East of the Blue Ridge,	362,745
In the Valley,	138,134
West of the Allegany,	181,384

Mr. Leighton replied that he had said if the Auditor's calculations were correct, and the mixed basis should be adopted in both Houses, the increase of population and taxes to the West might give them the balance of power about that time.

Mr. Thompson said he was by no means tenacious—he would withdraw his amendment. And he withdrew it accordingly.

Mr. Johnson, adverting to the expense of taking an assessment of all the lands of the State, thought that once in ten years was too frequent, and that once in 20 years would be sufficient. His view would be to fix an apportionment of representation among the great divisions of the State, and then to let the county representation be made as equal as possible among the large counties. He moved every twenty years, instead of every ten.

Mr. Powell, with the consent of Mr. Doddridge, varied his amendment, so as to read 1841 instead of 1840.

Mr. Doddridge could not accept as a modification the suggestion of Mr. Johnson, as to increasing the interval between the assessments from 10 to 20 years.

Mr. Powell said that with the deepest solicitude any human being could feel, he had turned his attention to the proposition of the gentleman from Albemarle, with a view to find whether it contained any thing that would warrant him in voting for it. He regarded the peace and good feeling of the West as of vast importance, and was most desirous to secure it; but he really could not bring himself to vote for the plan, unless some additional provision should be appended to it, having respect to future apportionment. He hoped something of this kind which he could approve, would be united with it, and then it should have his support.

Mr. Scott, in reply to Mr. Doddridge, observed that it seemed the gentleman who moved the present amendment, had changed his opinions on the subject of Government. The House had heard from that gentleman and from others who acted with him, very able and ingenious discussions on the principles of Republicanism: They had laid down, a priori, what were the distinctions between a Republic and an aristocracy, and an oligarchy: and this proposition or that, had been pronounced acceptable to them according as it squared with these fixed, unalterable, a priori principles, derived from nature and the fitness of things. They, on his side of the House, had contended for opposite doctrines: they had insisted that in establishing a Government, respect must be had to the interests of the governed:—that men were always swayed by interest:—that it was dangerous to trust to their passions—and that there must be a check and control founded in their interest, to counterbalance those passions. Now, it appeared, the gentleman had at length, become a convert to their sentiments. For, his main objection to the plan of the gentleman from Chesterfield was this, that the only guaranty it contained for the security of the West was, that the members of an Eastern Legislature would be governed by principle. Now, it seemed, men were very prone to be governed by interest, and all that had been said about conscience and a moral sense, &c. was not to be regarded. The gentleman had formerly told the Convention that the representation of slave property was utterly odious to him and to all in that portion of the State from which he came. But the gentleman was a convert on this subject also: and now he was the man who proposed to engraft on the scheme of compromise, that very principle of the representation of Slave Property. The gentleman had addressed himself to Eastern Virginia, and very successfully. So successfully, that he had induced them, out of magnanimity, to forego the interests of that section of country, for the sake of principle, pure principle, and in pursuance of the true doctrine of Republicanism. But, now, the gentleman said to those very men, I ask you to defeat and overturn those doctrines which you believe to be the a priori truths of genuine Republicanism; and I ask you, further, to engraft upon the plan of compromise a principle which I have declared before the world to be unjust and odious: and to do this in such a way as to prostrate the interests of your own Constituents, for the sake of those of a gentleman from Brooke. When the gentleman had said he was willing to make this sacrifice for the sake of compromise, they had asked him why he would not consent to engraft the same principle on the House of Delegates? The ingredient was the same in either House. The answer was furnished by his present course. It now seemed that the principle by which he had been governed, and the only principle, was a regard to western interest. Now, the gentleman avowed the principle that men are governed by their views of interest. And, thus situated, the gentleman hoped to prevail with Eastern Virginia to induce her to defeat his own favourite principle, & that to the injury of her own people! So far was Mr. S. from regarding the Federal number in the Senate as a protection, that he esteemed it even worse than the white basis alone. He had rather accept the white basis in both Houses. To organize one House on one basis and the other on the other, would be to provide for a perpetual war between them.

The feature was avowedly odious to the people of the west, yet the gentleman pressed to have it inserted. He would not say that this was done because that principle was odious to the West; but this was obvious, that if the gentleman wished to render the new Constitution distasteful and odious to the West, this was a direct mode of effecting that object.

Why not accept of the compound ratio? its effect would be almost exactly the same. He would not answer the question. How easy would it be to expel this principle from the Constitution! The People of the East began already to be presented in an unfriendly manner to their western brethren. They were called "the Eastern Dons." The terms "black Senate" and "negro Senate" were already heard. And with this spirit prevailing, the West were to have the entire control of the House of Delegates. Who so dull as not to anticipate the process? The lower House send up a popular Bill. The Senate reject it, the West complains of the rejection. Next year, the same Bill is sent up again. The Senate again reject it. The clamor, the odium is increased. Other Bills are got up—for the very purpose: so framed as to insure their rejection. These are sent up in succession, and one after another are rejected in the Senate, and this is repeated, until at length the people of the West are told, and made to believe it, that they are despised and trampled on. The next step is to pass a Bill in the lower House for the calling of a Convention. That Bill is rejected in the Senate. The tumult is now heightened. Next session another Bill for a Convention is sent up: it is rejected again. And what is the next step? it is this—to call a Convention by resolution of the House of Delegates, the Convention meets, and the obnoxious principle is expelled from the Constitution.

I now ask, said Mr. S., if his purpose has not been formed, and been avowed since this Convention has been assembled? Nothing, certainly, is more easy of accomplishment. This aristocratic feature, branded in its very birth with the most odious of names, what chance has it to contend with popular commotion and cabal? For my own part I had much rather surrender the whole ground at once.

Mr. Scott concluded by moving to amend the amendment of Mr. Doddridge by transposing the terms Senate and House of Delegates, so that the House of Delegates should be based upon Federal numbers and the Senate on white population exclusively.

Mr. McCoy spoke in reply. The gentleman from Fauquier has said that a plot has been formed, and avowed, to blow up this negro Senate. I tell him, that if there is such a plot, I have never heard of it. The gentleman from Fauquier may hear what I do not. But, I have never so much as heard of the plot he attributes to the whole body with whom I act. "He charges us with inconsistency. This charge I do not take to myself. I have never denied that the People of Virginia, met in Convention, may base their own Constitution in whatever pleases them best. But throughout the whole of my political life, I have always thought that Government ought not to be based upon property. It is my belief that wealth will always take care of itself: and that it has too much interest and influence in controlling society already, without giving it more by Constitutional provision. I agreed to introduce the federal number in the Senate for two reasons. I am not for surrendering the principle contended for by the slave-holding States in the federal government. The federal Constitution gives to one half of Virginia a representation based in that number. And this Convention has no right to fix on the State a principle of miserable discord. The people of the East will have a security in such a Senate that will protect this slave property from all unjust Legislation. None can disturb them in the quiet possession of it. This was the inducement with me to consent to a compromise. I found no difficulty in it, because on this plan they would not have their property held at the discretion of those who, they say, have got no property themselves. Now, we have some little property to the West, But, we are very poor, very poor: and I think our Eastern friends are not very rich. They have, to be sure, this species of property, which is the cause of all this distress; and which all admit is a curse. Now, I want to have them protected in it. I cannot vote for the proposition of the gentleman from Albemarle, unless it is to have some provision for the future. But, I am willing to go on for ten years without disturbing the question, and twenty years after that; and to all time. If I can't get something better than this. I had rather go back to the old Government. I shall vote against adopting the Constitution unless something better than this is to be put into it. I have listened with great patience to the debates, (and I am of a very irritable temper) and said nothing; and for the very best reason. I have no abilities for debate:—I am not a talking man. I make no pretensions to be so. But, now. I am pretty well weary; and I think it is time we had done.

Mr. Leigh rose to state a matter of history; but one which had a bearing on the argument before the House. It was, that a gentleman had called on him that morning and informed him, that the gentlemen from the Valley had assured that gentleman that they were ready to take the compromise of the gentleman from Albemarle as it stood, and would recommend a Constitution with that feature in it to the adoption of their own constituents: and this statement had been made to him (Mr. L.) with a view to regulate his conduct in reference to his own proposition.

The interview had the effect to render him less zealous than he otherwise should have been in advocating the proposition: and it explained to him the votes which had been given against it, and which he had expected to have been given in its favour. He stated that fact to shew its influence on his own course.

The experiment was now about to be made, (he was going to say for the last time) to see whether the East would be content to agree to a compromise in which they were to accept a ten years lease, and give up the fee simple of their property.

Whether the gentleman from Frederick (Mr. Powell) was one to whom he alluded, he could not tell. But now was the time, as he supposed, when this question of the basis was to be definitively settled.

Mr. Powell said, that when he had been last on the floor, he gave the Convention a solemn and most sincere assurance that he could not vote for the proposition of the gentleman from Albemarle, in conscience. And no individual had any right to say that he was prepared to vote for that proposition against his conscience. He never had said to any one that he was prepared to vote for it as it stood; and from whatever source his information was derived, there was no truth in the author's statement, so far as he was concerned.

Mr. McCoy said it was very probable he had said that if he was reduced to the dilemma of taking one or the other, he should prefer the plan of the gentleman from Albemarle to that of the gentleman from Chesterfield; but he could take neither, unless there was added some principle of future apportionment. Either would suit him very well for the time present, but he did not come here, and the people did not send him here, to agree to any temporary expedient. He wanted something that should last through time. He had no objection to the propositions in the plan of the gentleman from Albemarle, or even of that of the gentleman from Chesterfield: but to me it seems that no man could cast his eye upon the last, and not see that if that is to be adopted the East must rule through all time. No matter where the population shall be, or what shall be the growth of the western country, the East is to rule them through all time.

Mr. Mason of Frederick, now addressed the Convention as follows:

Mr. President: By those with whom I have the advantage of personal acquaintance, I shall never be suspected of being influenced in rising by the petty ambition of hearing my voice round within these walls. Could I be thus actuated, I should be admonished to silence by the attitude in which I stand to this assembly. I am here as the humble successor of one, who was honoured as the people's choice—their confidence was not given to me, for my seat I am indebted to the kind estimate of those who are now my colleagues.

Were more wanting to repress me, I should be further and sternly admonished, by the august presence of this assembly. But, Sir, the time has come, when to remain silent might be to betray—coming as I do more recently from the people, I may perhaps bear with me a fresher impression of their feelings on this momentous question, and though by accident their representative, they shall find me not less true to the trust.

Though not present at your deliberations, I have been not an unmindful observer of all that has passed on this much vexed question of representation. Through the faithful medium of the press, I have attentively heard and maturely I hope, considered all that has been urged on either side—and have taken a view of this controversy different from any that I have seen presented. 'Tis true, Sir, as has been avowed on this floor, that it is a struggle for power—but not as I imagine, a struggle between the East and the West. It is one of those fearful contests, of which all history is full, in which the government is on one side, and the people are on the other.

Instances almost innumerable might be adduced, when at periods more or less frequent in the history of every government. (I care not what its form) this controversy has arisen between the people and the ruling power.

The people demand the restitution of an usurped authority—the government refuses to accede—the people persists—the government stand firm in their refusal—an issue is fearfully made up—most generally the momentous trial of right is avoided by a compromise—when that fails, there is left but the narrow choice, between an abject submission, or the most spirited resistance. I am afraid. Sir, we are now brought to that point in our deliberations.

Let us briefly review the history of this convention. I shall make no laboured exposition from the statistical tables with which we have been furnished, to shew that it has been called by a large majority of the white population of the State—I am warranted in that assertion. It was loudly again and again demanded at the hands of the government, before it was extended—in 1817 the population clamor was for the time appeased, by a new arrangement of the Senatorial Districts, so as to accommodate that branch somewhat nearer to an equal representation of the white population.

The douceur had its effect, and the evil day for the time postponed. But it could not last—the thing was wrong in itself—the people would never be satisfied so long as they were held in all things obedient to the will of a confessed minority. This, sir, was the grievance. The government was called to retribution in this—a Convention was demanded almost for this alone.

I speak, sir, for the people whom I am here to represent in part, and for the whole adjacent country. I speak the voice of the entire West when I say, that to equalize the representation—to place the government where of right it ought to be in the hands of the majority of the political community. was the controlling motive which impelled them to a Convention.

Other objects may have been in view, but they were of far minor consideration—compared with this, they were but as a feather in the scale. A minority, and a very small minority, wielded the whole power of the State. The foundations of our institutions were subverted, and the grand effort was, to restore the power where it rightfully belonged, to the majority of the people. I speak, sir, of the only majority I ever knew—a majority of the political community—of the free white population. Much refined and able reasoning has been adduced to shew, that this is not the true majority—I have neither time now, nor perhaps ability to reply to the argument, but permit me to say in part, to the gentleman on the other side. who has attacked this republican fortress with most effect, in the language of a pithy poet, 'addidit robur invalidae FACUNDIA causae

I never can acknowledge but one majority in our country—and those whom we represent here, expect us to keep this steadily in view.

Again, by our brethren of the East, the right of the majority to rule, is denounced as an abstract principle. If any principle, apart from practice, is worthy to be denounced, it must be, because such principle is not only in practice, inapplicable, but ought not to be applied. When such principle is found in the abstract, and is ascertained impracticable. I agree that it ought to be denounced—but if the principle in question be such, surely all popular government resting upon it, is included in the denunciation. To this, gentlemen are inevitably brought—and if their denunciation be rightful, what a farce is your whole scheme of popular government. If it be rightful, put aside at once all your popular forms, and assume some other rule of power. Only, we entreat you, let your people know what their government in truth is. Do not announce it in your Bill of Rights in one breath, and violate it in your constitution in the other. Speak boldly forth and let the people know that power is no longer theirs—don't "keep the word of promise to the ear, and break it to the hope."

But, sir, we are told on the other side, in further answer, you require of us by your scheme of representation, to surrender up our property to your absolute controul. Though I should rely much on the strong sound sense which pervades the people, I have no overweening confidence in public virtue—I know well that under that mask, much and cruel injustice has been done.—It is seldom safe, to trust one man, or a set of men, with the property of another. But the supposition that we require this, is clearly gratuitous. Property, as the subject of taxation is diffused through the whole State. Though you of the East may have much, we of the West (as we have been just told by the venerable gentleman from Pendleton) have some little too. In a question of taxation, or of confiscation, be who has little is as deeply concerned as he who has more.

The rich argosie which bears abroad a nation's wealth, takes with it too the seaman's humble venture—li dash'd upon a rock, or plundered by pirates of the sea—the merchant is despoiled of his gains—whilst the seaman's all has perished. Does not the figure illustrate.

Where then is the disparity found—The grain-grower of the West may have an humble competency—whilst his more favored neighbour of the East, may have that which commands the luxuries of the Indies—tax them both equally—they both feel it equally—and though the Eastern man pays more, he in fact feels it's loss far less. This argument will apply throughout. as far as property is homogeneous.

But an objection is drawn from the fact that there is to the East a peculiar species of property of which the redundancy in there so great, that there is no correspondent sympathy to the West. I give to this, sir. its full weight—Not that I believe there is any real ground of apprehension, that it may be unjustly taxed; but its character is so peculiar, that I can well appreciate the anxiety, which would place it beyond the reach of harm—t is the peculium of the South, unfortunately there, we believe; yet so long as it remains, it should be sacred in their hands:—In its careful management, and delicate conservation, those who possess it, have a deeper stake, than the mere right of property: it is natural they should be sensitively alive to all that affects it, and far be it from me to advise any profane approach.

But, sir, having made this acknowledgement, is it not asking too much in return, that for the sake of that, we should surrender to them our birth-right. That we should hand over to them an absolute dominion over ourselves.—or rather should I not say, submit to their exaction, for as much is it required.

Mr. President :-To quiet this apprehension, we have offered to concede much—at least, so we have fondly thought. We offer it now, and I fear, for the last time, by the amendment in your hands. We offer a guarantee in the Senate, by including there the federal numbers. But the popular branch must be pure.

Distant as we are from our constituents, we cannot say how far they will sanction this concession. I for one, am willing to assume the responsibility; and if wrong, to look for my acquittal in that generous confidence, on which the representative principle is founded. The gentleman from Brooke, who offered the amendment, and my colleagues, nay, the entire West. will go thus far. But, Sir,—I speak it not in anger, nor as menace,—when I say. farther I cannot go—farther (I think I may speak it for them,) they will not go. Take it, then, as our ultimatum. So far as I know the will of those whom I represent, every principle of obedience forbids it. Though now a minority in the government, they have become so by the fortuities of time and accident. To remain such, by their own act, as they would do, by taking the proposition of the gentleman from Albemarle, without the amendment of the gentleman from Brooke, would rivet their chains, and conclude them forever.

As to what has been said by the gentleman from Chesterfield, of a communication to him, that many of the Valley members would unite on the plan of the gentleman from Albemarle, if his was abandoned, it must have been founded in misconception—

[Here Mr. Neale interposed to explain, &c.]

The gentleman from Richmond, is not the man to misrepresent, but he may have misapprehended—

Mr. Neale here again interposed, and said :

Mr. President I rise to state, that it was to me the gentleman from Chesterfield alluded, when he said. that a member of this House, had this morning made a communication to him, as to the probable vote of the Western members, on the proposition of the gentleman from Albemarle, (Mr. Gordon.) I had not intended to have noticed the allusion, knowing, that in the course of the debate, the whole matter would be explained by others; but the gentleman from Frederick, (Mr. Mason,) has again referred to the subject, and I feel bound to put this matter upon the ground it should rest.

Two gentlemen of honorable distinction in this body as elsewhere, who will, I doubt not, at a proper time. confirm what I am about to state, were conversing with me last evening, on the subject of the vote given yesterday in favor of the plan of representation, proposed by the gentleman from Albemarle, 50 to 46. They expressed an opinion in which I fully concurred, that it was the final opinion of the House, and that the western plan was irretrievably lost. They expressed great apprehension that the new scheme of the gentleman from Chesterfield, (Mr. Leigh) might be carried by the eastern gentlemen. They stated that such a result would prove fatal to the last hope of forming a Constitution, which would be accepted by the people of Virginia; that they could not vote for a Constitution so obnoxious and injurious to the West, and the people of the West, would vote against it to a man, and so would many of the East.—That if that scheme so odious to the West, could be defeated, they had sanguine hopes and were of opinion that twenty or more of the western members, now that their favorite plan was lost, would unite with the East, in voting for the plan of the gentleman from Albemarle. which, in their opinion, was in fact, more beneficial to the West than their own favorite plan: That if the eastern gentlemen would be satisfied with the proposition of the gentleman from Albemarle, (Mr. Gordon) they would advocate it (as all their own schemes had failed) and that they thought, that gentlemen from the West (in which I certainly understood that the Valley was included) would very probably to the number of more than twenty, unite with them—and if I concurred, I might, if I thought proper, communicate the same to my friends: That their own schemes had failed; and that of the gentleman from Chesterfield, they deemed obnoxious and injurious; and they were willing to take the plan voted for as presented by the gentleman from Albemarle, it being the best which they thought could be got.

I, this morning, made the communication to many of my political friends, among whom was the gentleman from Chesterfield, to the effect of which I have stated, and expressing always that I believed the plan of the gent. from Albemarle, would be voted for by members from the West. That I had great reliance in the opinion and discretion of those with whom I had conversed, without ever having named the gentlemen to my friends. I considered the information which I gave as important, if we wished to frame a popular constitution—and to my mind, as good a compromise of the question of representation, as it was practicable to obtain.

I was well convinced that the plan of the gentleman from Chesterfield, could not go down, and I voted against it, in the hope, that the prediction of the gentleman, with whom I conversed last night, might prove correct, as to the fate of the scheme of the gentleman from Albemarle. In all this matter, I laboured sincerely, to put at rest forever, (if I could) this much agitated and agitating question of representation.

Mr. Mason—If the gentleman is right in his apprehension, I am entirely ignorant to whom there is allusion—certainly not to me.

I have finished, Sir, all that I had to say. I feel—deeply feel—interested in the fate of the amendment; for on it hangs, I fear, the peace—the peace—if not, the integrity of Virginia.

The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Johnson (proposing an interval of 20 years between the assessments of the lands of the State) & it was adopted.

Mr. Summers moved to insert the words "at least" before the words "twenty years": but it was lost.

Mr. Scott now moved to amend so as to give the Federal number as a basis of representation in the lower House, and the white basis in the Senate.

Mr. Campbell of Brooke, moved an adjournment, but it was lost.

Mr. Doddridge demanded the yeas and nays on Mr. Scott's motion, and they were ordered by the House.

The question was then taken on the amendment of Mr. Scott (to reverse the two Houses, putting the Federal number in the Lower House, and the white basis in the Senate) and decided in the negative by yeas and nays as follows:

Ayes.—Messrs. Barbour, (P.) Jones, Leigh and Taylor of Chesterfield, Giles, Brodnax, Dromgoole, Alexander, Goode, Marshall, Nicholas, Mason of S., Trezvant, Claiborne, Urquhart, Randolph, Leigh of H., Logan, Venable, Madison, Stanard, Holladay, Roane, Taylor of Car., Morris, Garnett, Barbour of C., Scott, Macrae, Green, Tazewell, Loyall, Prentis, Grigsby, Branch, Townes, Bates, Neale, Rose, Coalter, Joynes, Bayly, Upshur and Perrin—44.

Noes. Messrs. Tyler, Clopton, Anderson, Coffman, Harrison, Williamson, Baldwin, Johnson, M'Coy, Moore, Beirne, Smith, Miller, Baxter, Mercer, Fitzhugh, Henderson, Osborne, Cooke, Powell, Griggs, Mason of F., Naylor, Donaldson, Boyd, Pendleton, George, M'Millan, Campbell of W., Byars, Cloyd, Chapman. Mathews, Oglesby, Duncan, Laidley, Summers, See, Doddridge, Morgan, Campbell of Brooke, Wilson, Campbell of Bed., Claytor, Saunders, Cabell, Martin, Stuart, Pleasants, Gordon, Thompson and Massie—52.

So Mr. Scott's amendment was rejected.

The question next recurred on Mr. Doddridge's amendment: when

Mr. Scott moved to amend it so as to give the Senate a basis on Federal numbers, and the lower House a basis on "population and taxation combined."

Mr. Doddridge asked the yeas and nays which were ordered and taken accordingly, and stood as follows:

AYES—Messrs. Barbour (President.) Jones, Leigh and Taylor of Chesterfield, Giles, Brodnax, Dromgoole, Alexander, Goode, Marshall, Tyler, Nicholas, Mason of Southampton, Trezvant, Claiborne, Urquhart, Randolph, Leigh of H., Logan, Venable, Madison, Stanard, Holladay, Roane, Taylor of Caroline, Morris, Garnett, Barbour of Culpeper, Scott, Macrae, Green, Tazewell, Loyall, Prentis, Grigsby, Branch, Townes, Bates, Neale, Rose, Coalter, Joynes, Bayly, Upshur and Perrin—45.

NOES—Messrs. Clopton, Anderson, Coffman, Harrison, Williamson, Baldwin, Johnson, McCoy, Moore, Beirne, Smith, Miller, Baxter, Mercer, Fitzhugh, Henderson, Osborne, Cooke, Powell, Griggs, Mason of F., Naylor, Donaldson, Boyd, Pendleton, George, M'Millan, Campbell of W., Byars, Cloyd, Chapman, Mathews, Oglesby, Duncan, Laidley, Summers, See, Doddridge, Morgan, Campbell of Brooke, Wilson, Campbell of Bedford, Claytor, Saunders, Cabell, Martin, Stuart, Pleasants, Gordon, Thompson and Massie—51.

So the amendment of Mr. Scott was rejected.

Mr. Martin now moved to amend by striking out 1841, and inserting 1850. (for the time of re-apportionment of the representation in the Legislature )

This amendment was also rejected by yeas and nays as follows:

AYES—Messrs. Barbour, (P.) Leigh of Chesterfield. Taylor of Ch. Giles, Brodnax, Dromgoole, Alexander, Marshall, Tyler. Nicholas, Clopton, Mason of S., Trezvant, Claiborne, Urquhart, Randolph, Leigh of H., Venable, Stanard, Holladay, Roane. Taylor of Caroline, Morris, Garnett, Barbour of C., Scott, Macrae, Green, Tazewell, Loyall, Prentis, Grigsby, Branch, Townes, Martin, Pleasants, Massie, Bates, Rose, Coalter, Joynes, Bayly, Perrin.—43.

NOES. Messrs. Jones, Goode, Anderson, Coffman, Harrison, Williamson, Baldwin, Johnson, McCoy, Moore, Beirne, Smith, Miller, Baxter, Logan, Madison, Mercer, Fitzhugh, Henderson, Osborne, Cooke, Powell, Griggs, Mason of F., Naylor. Donaldson, Boyd. Pendleton, George, M'Millan, Campbell of W., Byars, Cloyd, Chapman, Mathews, Oglesby. Duncan, Laidley, Summers, See, Doddridge, Morgan, Campbell of B., Wilson, Campbell of Bedford, Claytor, Saunders, Cabell, Stuart, Gordon, Thompson, and Upshur—53.

The attention was at length turned on Mr. Doddridge's amendment as amended by Mr. Johnson, viz:

"After the year 1841, and every twenty years thereafter there shall be a new apportionment of representation, and a new assessment of land taxes—each apportionment of representation shall be made in the following manner and on the following basis: viz: the number of free white inhabitants in the House of Delegates, and the federal basis in the Senate."

When the votes stood as follows:

AYES—Messrs. Anderson. Coffman, Harrison, Williamson, Baldwin, Johnson, McCoy. Moore, Beirne, Smith, Miller, Baxter. Madison, Mercer, Fitzhugh, Henderson, Osborne, Cooke, Powell, Griggs, Mason of F.. Naylor, Donaldson, Boyd, Pendleton, George, M'Millan, Campbell of W. Byars, Cloyd, Chapman, Mathews, Oglesby. Duncan, Laidley, Summers. See, Doddridge, Morgan. Campbell of Brooke, Wilson, Campbell of Bedford, Claytor, Saunders, Cabell, Stuart, Thompson and Massie—48.

NOES.—Messrs. Barbour (President) Jones. Leigh and Taylor of C., Giles, Brodnax. Dromgoole, Alexander. Goode, Marshall, Tyler, Nicholas, Clopton, Mason of Southampton, Trezvant, Claiborne. Urquhart, Randolph, Leigh of Halifax, Logan, Venable. Madison, Stanard. Holladay, Roane, Taylor of Caroline, Morris, Garnett, Barbour of C., Scott. Macrae. Green, Tazewell, Loyall, Prentis, Grigsby, Branch, Townes, Martin, Pleasants, Gordon, Bates, Neale. Rose, Coalter, Joynes, Bayly, Upshur, and Perrin—48.

So the amendment not having a majority in its favour was lost.

[The Convention therefore, have, a second time, REJECTED the proposition to base representation in the House of Delegates on the WHITE POPULATION EXCLUSIVELY]

Mr. Cooke of Frederick, now rose and addressed the Committee as follows: [See Extra.]

Mr. Henderson rose and stated that, if he had rightly apprehended the Chair, it was not in order further to debate the question before the House; upon which the President announced that it was in order.

Mr. H. continued: I do not rise, Sir. at this hour, to enter into the debate, but simply to declare, and, Mr. President, it is unnecessary to make the declaration, that the narrative of my friend from Frederick is strictly accurate: and that I agree with him, most cordially, in every opinion that he has advanced.—Yes, Sir, I unhesitatingly pronounce that the plan presented by the gentleman from Albemarle is better than the project of a House of Delegates, on the white basis with this Federal Senate, not for my immediate constituents only. but for the whole Commonwealth. It is purer in principle; and. in its effects, it will prove more salutary.—This opinion. Sir, is not lightly or hastily formed; it is the fruit of much study, of long continued, anxious and laborious investigation. I confidently hope to be able to convince my immediate constituents that my judgment is correct; at least that I am animated by motives worthy of the station with which they have honored me. If I fail in both, still, Sir, I feel that I am man; I feel the proud consciousness that I never sought place, with the fullest conviction that I have no earthly claim to distinction—! am well aware that independence is the fruit of the sweat of the brow; or. Sir. if you will have it so, of the toil of the brain. All that an honest man can claim is an open theatre for his exertions. Gentlemen have talked here of having planted their standards; and, amongst them, an honorable friend of mine, turning to Mr. Doddridge, my superior in years, and more, much more, my superior in intellectual endowments. Mr. President, these declarations penetrate me with profound regret. I boldly declare, Sir, in the face of this body, and of the ancient Commonwealth which it represents, that I will follow no sectional standard; but that, whenever the banner of Virginia floats, there, and there only will I be found.

Sir, we have been told of the "justum et tenacem propositi virum; and that he fears not the "ardor civium prava jubentium."

This is the test to which I am willing to be brought.

I, in common with my friend from Frederick, held with the respectable gentleman from Richmond county, the conversation which he has detailed. The plan of the gentleman from Chesterfield was exhibited to us. I felt for it aversion, I had almost said abhorrence.—The project for the white basis in the House of Delegates, and three-fifths of the slaves, mixed with it, for the Senate, had distinctly and repeatedly failed in committee of the whole, and in the Convention. A Gentleman with whom I had acted politically here had declared in his place, that we were beaten. In these circumstances we felt it our duty to urge the gentleman from Richmond county, not to sustain the proposition of the member from Chesterfield, assuring him that, in our opinion, many members from the Valley. and a portion of the Trans-Alleghany delegation, would vote for the scheme of the gentleman from Albemarle.

This was conjectural on our part. Seeing that, in our humble estimate, the public weal required it, we had just ground for the impression. We hoped that gentlemen would take this course rather than peril the peace, the happiness, the glory of the State by separation or civil War. If in this we err. it is a delusion of the understanding.—The wise and distinguished gentleman from Augusta, Mr. Johnson, announced, in his place, that the plan which we advocate was better for the interests of the West, than that which it opposes. Allowing, for the sake of the argument, that it is not better; any dispassionate man will admit it to be nearly as good—And then, sir, no principle whatever involved, for this difference between tweedle dum and tweedle dee. we are to "cry havoc and let slip the dogs of War!"—Sir, I was asked the other day to testify the sincerity of my attachment for my native State by my acts; to shew, otherwise than by words, that I venerated an honorable member of this body.—Here, sir, this day, before this assembly. I tender my proofs. This is the offering that I bring, little as it is, to the altar of our common and beloved country. Happy. thrice happy. had I been, had the honorable individual to whom I take the liberty to allude, had gone before me in this race. I did anticipate it; and I feel disappointment, deep and painful disappointment. For myself, sir, allow me to say, in that which vitally concerns my country, no consideration shall ever induce me, humble as I am. to violate the dictates of my conscience, So help me God !

Mr. Johnson rose in explanation. When what had been called a pledge by the Western members to take a certain course had been given, he had expressly stated it to be his understanding that nothing which passed should bind any body. No pledge had been given by him. He had bound himself to advocate no one measure in preference to another. He had said. that the object of the meeting was simply enquiry—a frank comparison of opinions, to ascertain not what was best, but what was practicable, and then to leave each individual to pursue the course recommended or not, just as he should think fit. He had felt himself at no time bound to vote for the proposition of the gentleman from Albemarle; and the support he should now give it was the result of no pledge to any human being.

Mr. J. said he should vote for the plan of that gentleman. viewing it as a compromise. But not with any view whatever that it was to sink the question which had been so much debated. That question never could be sunk till interest should sink in the view of men.—He should vote for this as a part of that whole which he had from the beginning endeavored to attain: of that whole which he yet trusted the wisdom of this Convention would be adequate to devise. If they were to be finally driven from any scheme of future apportionment. he could not help it: but his vote was given with no view to put an end to the question as to the just basis of representation. Two schemes had been presented to the House; one by the gentleman from Frederick (Mr. Cooke,) the other by the gentleman from Northampton (Mr. Upshur,) for a system of future apportionment. He would vote for either. He would willingly assume that responsibility, should no other or preferable plan be presented to the Convention.

Mr. Thompson said, it was certainly not his purpose at this late period of its proceedings to detain the Convention with a speech—He rose merely for the purpose of explaining, and that very briefly, the vote he was about to give—He had been a silent voter on this deeply interesting and agitating question of the basis of representation, during the whole progress of its discussion up to the present moment. notwithstanding the frequent allusions, direct and indirect, made in the debate, to the district he had the honor to part to represent on this floor. It was evident from the character of those allusions. that by the effect or accident of local circumstances, the attitude he was placed in, and the relation he bore to this question, was one of high importance and weighty responsibility. These considerations he was sure would constitute a sufficient apology for his trespassing a short time upon the attention of the Convention, jaded and exhausted as he was sure it must be, and he assured the Convention it should be a very short time. He meant to say no more than was absolutely necessary to guard his cause and conduct from misconstruction from any and every quarter.

Mr. T. said, he came to this Convention with the settled and deliberate conviction that free white population was the only true basis of representation in a representative democracy—and he came pledged to his constituents to act upon that conviction in the votes he should be called on to give here. That conviction had not been in the slightest degree shaken by any thing he had heard in debate, and by his votes he had as faithfully redeemed his pledge to his constituents as he had obeyed the honest dictates of his conscience and his best judgment He had foreseen, however, at an early period of the session. that concession and compromise were necessary to bring our labours to an harmonious and happy termination. The fears and apprehensions of his Eastern brethren, which he had hoped could be allayed by a Constitutional guaranty against unequal and oppressive taxation and partial appropriations, had rather been augmented than allayed by the temper and spirit of the debate. Those fears and apprehensions he had heretofore and still considered imaginary, but they were not on that account the less entitled to respect and consideration—and as soon as the idea of a guaranty was repudiated, as it seemed to be, on one side, if not on both. Mr. T. said, he had made up his mind to go for the compromise of the white population basis in the House of Delegates, and federal numbers in the Senate. This, he believed, most conscientiously to be the true and the only middle ground between the parties—it placed the popular branch in its legitimate hands, the majority of free whites, this was made the guardian of persons and personal rights—it gave to the slave-holders the Senate for their protection—and if protection and security be really the object of the East, here was a protection and safe-guard ample and complete.

Here was the shield for which they had asked. To concede the House of Delegates also, would be to put into their hands a sword, not for defence, but which might be employed offensively. Mr. T. said, entertaining these opinions, he had earnestly hoped this compromise would prevail : it had been his "first love." since he had been impressed with the necessity of compromise. and he had uniformly voted for it in Committee of the Whole, and in Convention. By the vote just taken, however, it had been lost by an equal division of the body; and the only remaining proposition now, is that of my worthy colleague, (Mr. Gordon,) upon which we are about to vote.

Of the merits of this proposition, Mr. T. would say nothing, as they had already been fully developed by the mover and other gentlemen pro and con—though the scheme was no favourite with him, he had assured his worthy colleague, & had always intended to vote for it as a compromise, after failing in his first choice, provided in the mean time no proposition less objectionable was presented. He preferred it infinitely to the projects of the gentleman from Northampton (Mr. Upshur,) and the gentleman from Chesterfield. Mr. Leigh.—Now, indeed, after rejecting all others, we were reduced to this single proposition; and objectionable to him as he would candidly confess it was, he could not hesitate to prefer it to the alternative of making no constitution. As a present and temporary apportionment, he had no serious objections to it. The great defect was, that it contained no satisfactory provision for future apportionments of power. The object of the mover he had avowed to be to sink that vexed question—this Mr. T. believed to be a vain effort—it could not be, it must be met and must be decided and adjusted sooner or later; and the sooner, the better for the repose of the Commonwealth; &c he, Mr. T., believed the only practicable and satisfactory adjustment that could take place, since the constitutional guaranty was repudiated, was to adopt the white basis in the House of Delegates, and the federal or mixed basis in the Senate. This would satisfy a majority of the community and nothing else would. The West were now willing to yield it, and it was to him matter of astonishment that the East would not close with the offer. Mr. T. said, while he held these opinions and whilst he feared that the adoption of the proposition of his colleague, would defeat the passage of the Constitution in this Convention, and if not its ratification by the people, he could not, so far as his vote was concerned, be "instrumental in its rejection now—to prevent or the scheme might, contrary to his anticipations, unite a respectable majority here, and a majority of the people. He felt it. therefore. to be his duty under present circumstances, to give the experiment a fair trial. and should it receive the sanction and support of a majority here and elsewhere, as a republican he should feel it his bounden duty, to acquiesce cheerfully in their decision. For these reasons, he should record his vote in favour of the proposition of his colleague, now under consideration.

Mr. Mercer went into an explanation of his course. He considered it due to himself to say that like the gentleman from Augusta, he had not viewed himself as compromitted by any thing that passed at the meeting alluded to. It was the first of the kind, which he had ever attended in the course of his short political life. The meeting was not held in private. other gentlemen were present besides the members of Convention—Some gentlemen whom he did not personally know: the door had been always open to the intrusion of any one. He supposed that the object had been to ascertain whether any compromise could be sustained. He was himself in favour of the plan of the gentleman from' Goochland, (Mr. Pleasants) and had made a calculation according to which he reckoned a majority of 16 votes in its favour. When he discovered that they had a majority of 24,000 of the citizens of the Commonwealth in favour of the white basis, exclusive of Albemarle, he had felt much encouraged. Delicate as was his situation, he should persevere in voting against any other scheme than that of the white basis in the House of Delegates. He thought this was the very last moment in which any friend of that cause ought to despair. The vote which had been given rather filled him with hope. He should vote against the proposition of the gentleman from Albemarle. He had understood the gentleman from Goochland, had consented to vote for his own proposition.

Mr. Pleasants denied having given such an assurance.

Mr. Cooke made an explanation corroborating the statement of Mr. Pleasants.

Mr. Pleasants said, that he had declared that if he could not get a graduated system of county representation to suit him, he might possibly accept of the other; but that he was so situated with respect to his District, that he did not know if it would have been in his power. He had expressly said, at the meeting, that he would bind himself to nothing.

Mr. Mercer said, that he had so understood all the other gentlemen: he never had been any where that he would consent to be bound. He had the public assurance of the gentleman from Northampton (Mr. Upshur) that he was not satisfied with a Senate of 36. and that if 40 was moved he should sustain it. He had therefore counted upon that gentleman's support; he had also reckoned upon the venerable gentleman from Orange (Mr. Madison) and very confidently on the support of the gentleman from Richmond (Mr. Marshall.) He had now, however, witnessed one equal division of the House on a Senate based upon the Federal number, and a House of Representatives upon the white basis. And this was the moment gentlemen had chosen to despair—on him, it had a very different effect.

If, indeed, he could believe with his friend from Frederick (Mr. Cooke) and his colleague (Mr. Henderson) who had conjured up such frightful phantoms before their own imagination and that of the Convention, then, indeed, he would give gentlemen a carte blanche, and they might write any Constitution that they supposed would remedy the evil: but he could believe in no such thing. In his country, certainly he had never heard of such an idea. There had been. he believed, some meetings of the non-freeholders, but nothing was to be apprehended of a violent character. The question was to be settled not by alarm, but by sound judgment. The gentlemen seemed to suppose that they were not fixing on any basis of representation because this apportionment was called an arbitrary one: It was not arbitrary: a principle of apportionment was at the bottom of it. And if it was intended to sink the question in dispute, it certainly failed of its object. Where must the resort be made to discover the principles on which it was founded? To the census of the State. And did gentlemen suppose that their constituents would not or could not resort to the census too? They had gained nothing on that score. He granted that when the constitution should come before the people, it would be hard to say on what basis it was founded. It was not on the white basis; nor on the black basis: nor on a money basis. But did they suppose this would satisfy the people? Were they likely to remain contented? He said no: and he believed that gentlemen deceived themselves if they thought that the great question would be settled by the present convention.

Mr. Upshur then spoke as follows :

Mr. President—I should not trespass on the patience of the Convention at this late hour, if it were not for the direct allusion which has been made to me. by the gentleman from Loudoun (Mr. Mercer.) That allusion renders it proper, if not absolutely necessary, that I should ask your attention for a few minutes. The gentleman after having assigned reasons for calculating with certainty, on the support of the gentleman from Richmond, (Judge Marshall) and the gentleman from Goochland, (Mr. Pleasants) concluded his remarks with an intimation that I also, had brought myself within the reach of his reasonable hopes. He founds these hopes upon an expression which escaped me, some three weeks ago, while this subject was under consideration in committee of the whole, an expression not used in the course of argument, but incidentally only. The gentleman, however, has never lost sight of it, and he has just told us. that he considered it as authorizing him to calculate on my support of the measure which we have just rejected, under all possible circumstances, and in every conceivable condition of things. With what justice or reason he has cherished these hopes, a very brief review of the facts of the case will enable you to determine.

It is needless to advert to the efforts which were made by me, to bring about a compromise of our differences with reference to this question, before the strength of parties should be tested, by any direct vote. Suffice it to say, that my wishes were met, and my efforts were of course, unavailing. By a majority of two, the free white population was adopted as the basis of representation in the House of Delegates. But the question was still unsettled as to the Senate, and it was extremely doubtful whether or not, the east would be able to carry its principle into the organization even of that House.

I was myself, extremely anxious to succeed in this measure. Believing that the House of Delegates was forever lost to us, I was eager to grasp at any thing which promised security, even though imperfect and precarious, to those eastern interests which we all considered to be most in danger. I believed it to be better to gain a little, however little,—than to lose all; and I am of the same opinion still. In the mean time, however, the views of parties had begun to change. The gentleman from Goochland, (Mr. Pleasants) who had all along voted with the majority, had become uneasy at the distracted state of our councils, and had brought forward his proposition for a Senate arranged on Federal numbers, as a measure of compromise. But it was now too late. The east had looked warily into the subject, and it had become a serious question with a large majority of that delegation, whether they ought to accept of such a Senate or not. A few of them, and myself among the number, thought that we ought, for we considered it wiser, in the present state of public feeling. to submit even an unexceptionable constitution to the people than to dissolve the Convention without doing any thing. But we all contemplated not merely a Senate on the basis of Federal numbers, or some other basis equally favorable to us: but we looked also to additional guards and securities. The gentleman from Fairfax. (Mr. Fitzhugh) had submitted his guarantees against unequal taxation, which were still undisposed of, and which were in the contemplation of every eastern member who had reconciled himself to such a Senate at all. In this state of things, the question came up for consideration. The gentleman from Fauquier, (Mr. Scott) proposed a Senate of forty-eight, based on taxation alone, and possessing concurrent legislative powers, with the House of Delegates. This, it is believed, would have been acceptable to every eastern member, but it was lost, the universal western vote being against it. We then proposed a Senate of thirty-six, upon a different basis, but it was lost, the universal western vote being against it. A Senate of thirty or thirty-two was then proposed, and before the question was taken, the gentleman from Brooke, (Mr. Doddridge) gravely proposed the number of the existing Senate, twenty-four! That gentleman knew, as every other gentleman knew. that no eastern member would agree to accept of a Senate organized upon any principle whatever, without a considerable increase in the number of that House. But this was not all. That same gentleman had declared on that occasion or a few days before,—the time is of no consequence—that his votes on the question of suffrage, had been given with express reference to this subject. Such a Senate as we asked was odious to him, and he had voted for the least limited extension of the right of suffrage, with the express view of rendering that Senate useless and unavailing. This object was to render it either inoperative in practice, or very short in duration. Sir, when things of this sort were acting before my eyes, by gentlemen who professed to be in search of fair compromise, and who calculated on my support to their measure, I thought it high time to undeceive them. It was then that I told them that all these attempts were worse than idle; that although they did not mean to mock us, yet that we should assuredly regard their offers as the worst of mockery, if they did not indicate some desire to render those offers acceptable to us; and that the course they were pursuing would have the certain effect of driving from them, even those among us, who were then best disposed to their measures. I added also,—with very little of the caution of the diplomatist, I admit, for I have no concealments neither in Parliament nor out of it, that so far as I, myself, was concerned, I would prefer a Senate of forty-eight. but that I might agree to one of thirty-six, and would not agree to any less number This is the remark alluded to by the gentleman from Loudoun, and these the circumstances under which it was made The gentleman now offers us a Senate of thirty-six; he gives us one number, but he loses sight of that increase of legislative power which was contemplated in the proposition of the gentleman from Fauquier, and of the equally valuable guarantee of the gentleman from Fairfax! An expression of my willingness to accept a Senate of thirty-six, but with a reference irresistibly implied, to all the guards and securities which were then before us, and considered in direct connexion with it, has been construed into something like a pledge that I would accept of a Senate, with that number only, without either guard or security!!

But there is yet another part of the history of this subject which deserves to be mentioned. Even after the declaration above alluded to, was made, no farther vote was taken upon the question. No western gentleman ever announced his willingness to vote for a Senate of thirty six, either with or without guards and securities, but the committee rose without coming to any resolution in regard to it. The subject was not again taken up for many days, nor until western gentlemen had held no less than three meetings of their friends, in order to determine whether they would go even as far as they now propose, or not. In the mean time, the attention of eastern members had been turned to other plans of compromise. The gentleman from Albemarle had submitted the scheme now before us ; the gentleman from Chesterfield had submitted another; I had myself submitted a third. and the gentleman from Richmond had presented calculations for a fourth.—Each and every one of these measures, was more acceptable to the Eastern delegation, than the House of Delegates on the white basis and the Senate on every other basis that could be devised; measures which we had carefully prepared and committed ourselves to support, while the gentleman from Loudoun and his friends were deliberating whether they would give us a feeble and inefficient Senate of thirty six members or not.—They finally determined that they would make us the offer, but never until it was fully ascertained. that we could get all that they offered us and more, without any assistance from them And yet under all these circumstances, after the backwardness and reluctance of Western gentlemen to meet us on the terms of compromise, proposed by the gentleman from Goochland, had forced us upon other expedients; after we had committed ourselves to our friends and to the country at large, to advocate and sustain those expedients with all our powers; while those very expedients were yet before us, undisposed of; the gentleman from Loudoun has flattered himself with the hope. that we should consider ourselves under a pledge to retrace our steps, to abandon all our own favourite projects, and to accept another which we had never looked to but as a last alternative. and which was never offered to us until it could no longer be withheld! Whether the gentleman, in entertaining this extravagant expectation, has deceived himself or been deceived by others, you, Sir, and others who hear me, may determine

But, Sir, whatever may have been the favor with which we at first regarded the measure to which the gentleman is now so anxious to bind us, he has himself, given us the best possible reasons for looking more narrowly into the matter. If we have become somewhat more distrustful than we were at first, we owe our additional caution to the gentleman's own admonitions. Remember, Sir, that this measure is offered us under the name of compromise; an agreement founded upon mutual, if not equal concession. None of us have forgotten the masterly argument of the gentleman from Richmond (Judge Marshall) upon this subject. He endeavoured to shew that to give the Senate to the East & the House of Delegates to the West, was not an equal compromise, and that the very gentlemen who offered it, did not consider it equal. "If they do consider it equal" (said he) why will they not take the Senate & give us the House of Delegates?" The gentleman from Loudoun, in reply to this question,—no Sir, not in reply to it, for it is one of those home questions which admit of no reply.—in endeavouring to evade the force of it, told us that equality was not what we asked for ; that protection and security were the utmost that we had ever demanded. The same idea has been reiterated by the gentleman from Brooke, (Mr. Doddridge.)

Now, Sir, will gentlemen be pleased to tell me, whether they believe that we should be "secure" or not, if both branches of the Legislature were based on white population? They may answer the question as they please. If they think that we should not be "secure," then they meant us injustice when they so strenuously contended for that basis, and of course we were right on that question. If on the other hand, they think that we should be "secure," then what do they concede to us, when they offer us the Senate? They will doubtless disclaim, as they may truly disclaim, all idea of intentional injustice, and then, the conclusion is inevitable, that in offering us the Senate, they offer us no more than they themselves believe, we fully enjoyed before. Is not this a perfectly original idea of a compromise? a compromise which neither concedes nor abandons any thing whatever!! Nay more. A compromise which proposes to give us, as an equivalent for a total abandonment of our political principles and political power also, security for our property, against unjust or unwise Legislation; a compromise which exacts every thing from us, and gives us no more than belongs. of absolute right. to every human being in the world? It is from this view of the subject, that I have repeatedly refused to debate the terms of this proposition. I can never recognise it as a compromise at all. And surely, sir, no better reason can be required than is here presented. for refusing now, a measure which appeared so plausible, before its own friends had stripped it of its disguise. When we claimed the Senate and struggled to gain it, we considered it of value, because we believed that it would give us political power; and then it was refused to us. "And now it is offered to us, and it is insisted that we are bound to take it, after gentlemen have proved to us that it gives no power at all; that they never intended that it should give any thing more than "security." and that even in point of "security," it gives us no more than we had without it. Under these circumstances the gentleman from Loudoun may measure the reasonableness of his expectations, by his own estimate of our intelligence and watchfulness.

The final question was now, at length, put on agreeing to Mr. Gordon's compromise and decided in the Affirmative by yeas and nays as follows:

[The rest of this Day's Proceedings concluded in EXTRA, accompanying this day's paper.]

In consequence of the Christmas Holidays, our paper will appear twice only during this week. Our Friday's paper will bring up the proceedings of the Convention,